Comments on THE GURU LOOKED GOOD by Marta Szabo: WAKING UP by Estee

Anony said...I can only entertain, without real ce...

2008-02-18T20:12:00.000-08:00

Anony said...
I can only entertain, without real certainty, some vague notions about what others might be shuddering about. Please explain.

I'm not one of the shudderers... but I can offer an opinion.

In the SYDA ashrams, like many other spiritual/religious systems, many people strongly believed in an invisible powerful energy that powerfully affected their lives. If your fate is really in the hands of invisible energy controled by some guru or magician or whatever, perhaps you can imagine how insecure that could make one feel.

When one feels that this energy is benevolent (God's grace, guru's grace, shakti, yada yada), then it can bring joy... but even then, there's a shadow of fear, since you always have to consider that if you make a misstep, you'll lose your connection to the energy. But when you start to think that the energy may be controled by a malevolent magician (as some now imagine Baba and Gurumayi to be), then you're really up the oft-mentioned creek.

Really, the only solution that I can see is to recognize this belief in magicians controling you through their energy to be just that: a belief, an idea, mere thinking. To whatever extent we believe in the power of our own efforts to keep clarity and compassion in our minds and actions... to that extent we're free of the fear generated by belief in Black Magic and the like. As long as hold the belief in magic energies, then indeed we'll have something to shudder about.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

“Many of us would shudder to think that "siddha yo...

2008-02-09T08:03:00.000-08:00

“Many of us would shudder to think that "siddha yoga" was still "in us"...as those who have educated themselves in tantric theory and practice know exactly what that means.”

Would someone be kind enough to please spell out exactly what is meant by the above? Sorry to be such a dolt, but I’m not at all sure I’m on the same page as the aforementioned educated ones currently in the know. At this point I can only entertain, without real certainty, some vague notions about what others might be shuddering about. Please explain. Thanks.

Anonymous said... I am a better, more whole person...

2008-02-06T11:44:00.000-08:00

Anonymous said...
I am a better, more whole person because of Siddha Yoga.

You say you're better etc because of "Siddha Yoga." That's unclear... what's "Siddha Yoga"? I know it's a phrase that lots of people use, but the meaning is pretty vague.

Leaving that aside: why hold thoughts about being a good person? I can understand this much. If you're suffering from depressing thoughts like "I'm a bad person," then maybe sometimes it's good to counteract them by thinking, "Now I'm a better person." But that's just temporary medicine.

What's the use of holding I/my/me thinking in either case? Why pump yourself up with beliefs that you're a better or more whole person?

It's like someone walking around telling everyone, "I'm so so rich!" It's kind of a waste. If you're really rich, you don't necessarily have to talk about it, you can just use your money in a meaningful way. Simiarly, if you've become a better person, it's enough to demonstrate it with how you live your life.

Maybe there's some value in holding ideas about what a good and whole person you are, and telling others about it. But I'm not sure, I don't really see the point of it so much. Most of the time it seems like unnecessary I/my/me.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

>>"you know, I don't this it's a question of a "ma...

2008-02-06T11:43:00.000-08:00

>>"you know, I don't this it's a question of a "maturing spirit"...spirit is neither "mature" or "immature". "<<

sorry..should have read, "I don't think it's a question of a maturing spirit..spirit is neither mature nor immature..."

it seems like a discussion on anger grew out of th...

2008-02-06T10:32:00.000-08:00

it seems like a discussion on anger grew out of the comments on this piece.

I'm sure mental health professionals and therapists have said this way better than I ever could or would.

bitterness is not pretty. There's a difference between bitterness and anger. Anger is fuel, energy. bitterness is more like stuck energy that implodes the owner.

Anger is way cleaner than bitterness.
either way, what I have learned is that as a regular, off the rack, work a day person, not a freaking sadhu, not a guru's nun, I have a very wide range of emotions. and that is very much okay.
if someone needs to be bitter, be my guest.

when I began to listen to my emotions, to honor myself, I began to be able to detach from the cult.

>>As a past staff member who has learned and grown...

2008-02-06T10:10:00.000-08:00

>>As a past staff member who has learned and grown through his own search for meaning through this all, there is one thread that seems missing from many posts here...

When I take responsibility for myself, my actions and the choices I made, I am left with this: many years of incredible growth."<<

Dear Friend,
I think there has been much discussion on this topic...especially during Marta's "The Guru Looked Good". If you read the comments section, you will see many people having "taken responsibility" for their attraction to and time in siddha yoga, their responsibility to address the suffering of others and their own post-syda self-inquiry.

"That the Guru is revealed as a human being with failings does not negate my own personal journey. My many years on tour and in the ashram form part of a tapestry that is rich and growing."

>>I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that involvement with siddha yoga "negated" their personal journey. They may have said it "sidetracked" that journey or complicated that journey or temporarily stalled that journey but not "negated" the journey.

"I am a better, more whole person because of Siddha Yoga. And, I am a better, more whole person because of my struggle with the issue of the Guru's human-ness."

>>>this is great..I mean it. If siddha yoga worked in this way for you, then it was obviously a very good path for you. Many people, though, did not have that experience and many ex-devotees, rather than feel "better" and "more whole" have felt shattered and deeply shocked by what is perceived as a betrayal of the worst kind. The moral and ethical issues that have come to light have been really impossible for many people to ignore and this has affected them deeply, creating the need for a great deal of personal work. The guru was never presented as a "human being" in siddha yoga which is part of the problem for many people.

"Am I still in Siddha Yoga is not the question. Siddha Yoga is in me--what I make of it is my responsibility. Even the dross can be turned into gold of a maturing spirit"

>>you know, I don't this it's a question of a "maturing spirit"...spirit is neither "mature" or "immature". Spirit/Self simply "is"..never changing and out of time. Many of us would shudder to think that "siddha yoga" was still "in us"...as those who have educated themselves in tantric theory and practice know exactly what that means. But that's simply a different point of view..and I have to respect that, for you, siddha yoga has worked and continues to work very well. This is not the case with many of us so perhaps you could accept that the responsibility we have taken for our own lives includes questioning and then leaving siddha yoga.

thank you for considering my point of view.

"

hmm anger seems to be a hot topic.women and anger ...

2008-02-06T07:25:00.000-08:00

hmm anger seems to be a hot topic.
women and anger is another one.

what if I had been able to verbalize way back when at the time the cult recruiters were getting their hooks into me?

what if I had enough boundaries to be able to say, no don't call me every day at my job at 6:00am to force me to sing the brainwashing song to the guru?

What if I had just hung up on the phony baloney who was attempting to hook me into the cult by pretending to be a friend?

What if I expressed the horror when they told me I wasn't allowed to have any real love, romantic relationships in exchange for being a sexless unloved unpaid, unappreciated slave laborer for the cult leaders corporation?

What if? Wouldn't I be angry?

Now I'm older and wiser and yes, angry.

As a past staff member who has learned and grown t...

2008-02-05T21:11:00.000-08:00

As a past staff member who has learned and grown through his own search for meaning through this all, there is one thread that seems missing from many posts here...

When I take responsibility for myself, my actions and the choices I made, I am left with this: many years of incredible growth. Much based on truth and power in the teachings and the prectices.

That the Guru is revealed as a human being with failings does not negate my own personal journey. My many years on tour and in the ashram form part of a tapestry that is rich and growing.

I am a better, more whole person because of Siddha Yoga. And, I am a better, more whole person because of my struggle with the issue of the Guru's human-ness.

Am I still in Siddha Yoga is not the question. Siddha Yoga is in me--what I make of it is my responsibility. Even the dross can be turned into gold of a maturing spirit

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is app...

2008-02-04T08:49:00.000-08:00

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is appropriate anger expression in children?

--
I think this is only a relevant question if one makes it time and culture specific. What was completely acceptable 100 years ago is not today. Likewise if you compare across cultures. We get very caught up, imo, about what is "right" in this respect and forget all about the context.

>>>"Generally I go with "calm down take some breat...

2008-02-03T15:59:00.000-08:00

>>>"Generally I go with "calm down take some breaths, we will talk about it when you are calmer".Does anyone have any other ideas about what is appropriate anger expression in children?
thank you everyone for your ideas and this discussion."<<

How do you express anger yourself? that might be a good place to start? I've sure seen kids rolling on the floor at the supermarket, hitting their Moms, screaming and throwing things..they always seem very unhappy at the lack of limits and wind up, more often than not, in a state of complete exhaustion(not to mention the poor Moms). I've seen the "time out" thing working very well...but, somehow, there must be a way of allowing the anger to be felt before closing it off? Remember being angry as a child? Could have probably dismembered someone if given the chance..it comes from powerlessness, I think. But children are " powerless" in the sense of being dependant on others for their very survival. And anger is very powerful.
Someone once made an observation that I think is very true and might be helpful..that when someone is really angry, the energy (which is extremely intense) builds up until it has to be discharged. It becomes just too uncomfortable to contain it in the body. I'm really curious to read what people think about children and anger. Ever watch "The Nanny" on tv? you sure don't want that situation. lol.

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is app...

2008-02-03T13:51:00.000-08:00

Does anyone have any other ideas about what is appropriate anger expression in children?

My friends with kids, when the kids are acting out angrily, the parents will always remind them to "use words." That is, their focus is to teach their kids to verbally communicate what's bothering them. That way, they're telling the kids that it's OK to be angry, and it's OK to express anger; no need to hide or deny it. The only thing to control is how to express it. If the parents guide the kids towards how to communicate, the kids will learn for themselves that clearly explaining why you're angry gets better results than acting-out violently. (Usually, anyway.)

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

With regard to the dynamic of adults not allowing ...

2008-02-03T09:12:00.000-08:00

With regard to the dynamic of adults not allowing children to express anger. I experienced this as a child ( many of my generation did) but I have a question as an adult now raising my own children. What kind of anger is appropriate in young children? Hitting others is out, also breaking things and throwing them around the room. But what is ok? Stomping up the stairs slamming the door? Yelling at the top of their lungs? Yelling insults? Obviously in the case of a previous writer being mistreated by a teacher, a good parent would have supported and come to the child's defense.
Generally I go with "calm down take some breaths, we will talk about it when you are calmer".Does anyone have any other ideas about what is appropriate anger expression in children?
thank you everyone for your ideas and this discussion.

Regarding the high rates of depression discussed h...

2008-02-03T06:40:00.000-08:00

Regarding the high rates of depression discussed here by those who have been members of abusive spiritual set ups:

I think I read that being under chronic stress and having cortisol levels that are elevated long term can lead to depression, especially in persons already susceptible.

And as discussed here and elsewhere, it is stressful to be an entourage member who parents and covers up for a guru's childish, tantrum tossing shadow side--and to have the burden of keeping all sorts of secrets hidden from the trustful outer circle members who are allowed only to see the well staged beauty of it all.

For perspective, I can report a sad story from a friend who trained for ordination to the Lutheran ministry. She was assigned to spend a year in a church congregation as vicar/assistant to the head pastor, who it turned out was alcoholic and dysfunctional.

She had a hellish year and came home having to use Paxil, for she'd developed not only depression but crippling anxiety attacks.

She later told me that when she quized the students in her class who had returned from their vicar assignments, half of them reported that they had started using anti depressants during that time.

'What the hell is wrong with this picture?' my pal groaned.

Google 'cortisol' and 'depression' and see what you get.

Chronic sleep deprivation due to overwork and fretting about a guru's whims can also play havoc with physical and mental health.

And when depression and other signs of stress are rationalized as evidence of purification or as signs of the persons own bad karma, rather than as INFORMATION that you're in a sitauation that is bad for you...its even harder to leave.

And if the misery is rationalized as a badge of honor, as evidence that you are tough enough to take it, then setting limits, protecting yourself and leaving will get you labeled as dispicable and weak. If youve been made to participate in jeering at others who broke down and left, it can be that much harder to contemplate leaving, knowing you will be in for the same derision you witnessed being dished out to others who left or were ejected.

I remain convinced that it takes a particular degree of physical resilience to be a suitable entourage member to an abusive leader.

Anyone whose health breaks down rapidly under stress would not last very long--which could be a blessing in disguise.

Its the resilient people who risk staying in a situation long enough to sustain really serious long term damage.

I would say anyone who has served long hard time under the thumb of an abusive leader should, after leaving, go to a physician and get a thorough physical and get tested for cardiac risk factors and also see if the body is metabolizing glucose normally. Chronic stress can be very bad for persons genetically predisposed to diabetes because severe tension triggers fight or flight response and causes blood sugar to rise. Long term, this can bring wear and tear to the pancreas.

Anony said...i love the image of the wall of anti-...

2008-02-02T12:03:00.000-08:00

Anony said...
i love the image of the wall of anti-depressants at the arati store!

I've talked to someone who left Ammachi's (the hugging guru) group, and he said that her inner circle of devotees was filled with people on anti-depressants. I'm not sure what we can conclude from this... maybe it's just that more depressed people are drawn to guru groups. But it could mean that the teachings of Ammachi and Gurumayi and similar groups are harmful or not helpful in dealing with depression.

This'd make sense to me. Since the core teaching of these groups is that there's a particular type of thinking, feeling, or mindstate that's "spiritual" or "holy" etc, it means that when you're not in this approved mindstate, it's somehow inferior. If the guru says you should always be blissful and peaceful, then devotees believe that if they're angry etc, it's a failure.

It doesn't have to be that way. An alternate teaching is to NOT believe in some special ideas or emotions or states are "superior." Rather, we can attend to the truth of whatever we experience, moment to moment. We can see the truth in whatever our just-now situation is... rather than holding the mythology that only some special state authorized by the guru is correct and permissable.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

>>"At other Alanon meetings people have said the s...

2008-02-02T10:47:00.000-08:00

>>"At other Alanon meetings people have said the same thing: they grew up in households where the adults were allowed to range and misbehave but as children, they were supposed to embody the honesty and good manners the adults refused to practice."<<<

erk! how well I remember this dynamic! I guess we get used to the cognitive dissonance early on and then make a beeline for it in places like syda...so very familiar..it "feels just like home!" (something I said myself after my first trip to Fallsburg)...sigh!
Joshua, thank you so much for your post. I remember reading your comments on other sites in the past couple of months. Boy it seems like you have really made tremendous strides in terms of understanding and working with your ashram experience. It's a great gift for others. Thank you.
best to you

Joshua wrote:'In the ashram, anger was, in a sense...

2008-02-02T08:08:00.000-08:00

Joshua wrote:

'In the ashram, anger was, in a sense, "reserved" for those in power. Gurumayi could rage and shout and humiliate people. This was called "divine teaching, holy fire," etc.

and

'Anger was also okay if you were an "inner circle" person, close to Gurumayi, or considered "important."

and

'It was okay for the swamis and teachers and managers to be rude and angry, but the "average" sevite? No, no no.

For purposes of comparison, this set up where anger is the prerogative of the powerful and those lower in the pecking order are forbidden to be angry...

I had the same thing growing up in an alcoholic family. As a child, I was supposed to be polite, mannerly and honest.

But the adults were allowed to vent anger, be sarcastic, and years later, I discovered that they lied, lied, lied.

But when I expressed age appropriate anger or distress (such as when I had a third grade teacher addicted to speed who was verbally vicious)...I, as the child/underling was scolded for being angry and accused of being an 'injustice collector.'

Yet my mother used to bitch and rant about stuff that happened to her decades earlier. I had to listen to her and be the dumping ground. Years later I got involved in Alanon and discovered how much this stressed me out--and that listening to my mother's grudges had done nothing to assist her healing.

When I finally set limits on this and told her how it stressed me out, her reply was 'You dont know what you are talking about.'

Had my mother been a guru and not a garden variety depressed alcoholic, she'd have used Hindu or New Age spirituality to rationalize all this.

At other Alanon meetings people have said the same thing: they grew up in households where the adults were allowed to range and misbehave but as children, they were supposed to embody the honesty and good manners the adults refused to practice.

Joshua also wrote:
Have you looked in the Arati store at the ashram lately? There's an entire wall of natural antidepressants like St. John's Wort, etc. Seriously, an entire wall of them. What does that say about how the staff is feeling these days?

Id be that every abusive guru and ashram is probably surrounded by a network of alternative health care providers and mainstream health care providers (physicians, psychotherapists, massage therapists, acupuncturists) who, knowingly or unknowingly, prescribe and administer treatments to suppress the tension and subversive insights that beset the abused members of the community.

There are acupuncture protocols as powerful at suppressing stress as anything in a bottle.

If a health care provider is alert, he or she would ask, 'What is going on in your life that you are coming her again and again for this treatment?'

But someone who asked such questions might lose income---abused persons who dont want to face the true nature of the situation would not come back--and perhaps warn others not to consult such a person.

It would be damn interesting to know the rate at which psycho active meds are being prescribed--and whether those prescribing them really know the day to day work and social conditions at the ashram...or know not to ask.

thank you Joshua for your enlightening and meaning...

2008-02-02T06:51:00.001-08:00

thank you Joshua for your enlightening and meaningful comments on anger at the fallsburg ashram...i love the image of the wall of anti-depressants at the arati store! from my own ten years back and forth to fallsburg from the west coast, I can say i agree with you wholeheartedly. staff people had so much rage and frustration pent up inside it was unbelievable, and guilt about even feeling it in the first place! it was really heartbreaking. as more and more of the story unfolds, and with illuminating comments like your own, it gets clear why this was the case. thank you again and i really hope you write more from your valuable perspective of a recent escapee.

Marta, thank you for hosting this blog. I left st...

2008-02-01T09:55:00.000-08:00

Marta, thank you for hosting this blog. I left staff only recently, and your story and those of others here have been a great catalyst for deconstructing my SY experiences.

The discussion about anger has been very thought provoking and insightful. Frankly, I was one of those people who had a knee-jerk reaction to any anger or "negative" emotions among posters. Cynthia's comments have really made me think about my own programming, in and out of SY, about anger. It's hard to admit that I experienced brainwashing in Siddha Yoga, but I don't know what else to call it. I do realize that my many years in the ashram exposed me to some very strange and contradictory "lessons" about anger.

In the ashram, anger was, in a sense, "reserved" for those in power. Gurumayi could rage and shout and humiliate people. This was called "divine teaching, holy fire," etc. How many times did we hear the story about Baba raging around the GSP ashram, whacking people with sticks and yelling at everyone, then going into his house and bursting out laughing, saying, "Oh, I love my people so much." I heard this story countless times, from Gurumayi, from Swamis and other teachers. It was used to explain away the anger of the guru as something holy.

I was always amazed when I'd ask people who were screamed at by Gurumayi what it felt like. Most people said they felt "waves of bliss" when she was yelling at them. I've got to say it sure didn't look like what they were feeling, when they were turning red, stuttering and bursting into tears.

Anger was also okay if you were an "inner circle" person, close to Gurumayi, or considered "important." The first time I did seva I was selling items in the lobby outside the intensive hall during a break with two charming and sweet women. At one point, a man with dark glasses, a suit and a radio came storming over and started hollering at us. He screamed that everything was in the wrong place, the cash box was a mess, and how could we be so sloppy! He slammed the products into their "proper" place and stomped off, muttering into his radio. The whole time, the two women smiled beatifically. I said, "Who was that jerk?" and they said, "Oh, that's just how the shakti moves in him. He's very strong and fiery, so he can be close to the guru." I remember thinking that they were both crazy.

So how did I go from thinking that they were crazy to embracing those ideas myself? Over 20 years I learned to rationalize away "important" people's anger, just like they did.

It was okay for the swamis and teachers and managers to be rude and angry, but the "average" sevite? No, no no. Look for the positive. Don't be negative. Transcend your anger. "Handle" it.
Anger against the organization, against management? Absolutely not. You could rage at your kitched sevites, but express anger about your promised severence pay disappearing? You had "limited understanding." Complain about crazy-making, ever changing policies that made no sense? You were inflexible,"contracted," hadn't really imbibed anything after all those years of yoga, and were branded as "negative."

Suppression of anger can be deadly. A lot of psychologists say that depression is anger turned inward, and I believe it. Have you looked in the Arati store at the ashram lately? There's an entire wall of natural antidepressants like St. John's Wort, etc. Seriously, an entire wall of them. What does that say about how the staff is feeling these days?

If you complained about someone’s anger or abusiveness, people would put on that fake SY smile and talk about how Baba said he just put us all together and like rocks in a polisher, so we would polish away each others’ egos.

I always thought this was like sticking a bunch of people in a demolition derby, in cars with no brakes and a contest with no rules. What you end up with is a bunch of injuries and bashed up cars. You get whiplash, not enlightenment.

So now I feel like I have spiritual whiplash. It’s a subtle injury. Real, but you can’t see it on any x-ray or on any test. Your brain is muddled, you hurt, but there’s no real proof that it exists. Other people don’t seem hurt. Maybe it’s all in your head. Come on, that car didn’t hit you that hard. Or did it?

Hey, maybe I'm a little angry about all this...

Thanks for inspiring these thoughts.

- Joshua

>>"I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have ...

2008-02-01T06:51:00.000-08:00

>>"I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have some (imho) highly positive models for handling anger in ways that might appear to be "keeping the lid on," but that can actually be healthy for us as individuals and for this country as a whole. Just my opinion, of course"<<<

Good point! Anger as a political strategy isn't a good way to go..."kicking ass", "shock and awe"...uh, a big part of our current problem.
However we choose to deal with our anger, doing the inner work as individuals is critical. I like what you said about Obama's way of handling anger. It's interesting, isn't it, how the press will goad politicians/celebrities into having an emotional reaction of some kind and then castigate them for reacting? can't imagine how that must feel.

Posted this morning, in Oprah's website, about Eat...

2008-02-01T06:41:00.000-08:00

Posted this morning, in Oprah's website, about Eat, Pray, Love:

Re: Name of Guru and Ashram

Liz Gilbert studied at the Ganeshpuri ashram of Muktananda and Chidvilasananda's Siddha Yoga. *** Siddha Yoga, one of many quasi Hindu/yoga movements to come to the United States in the late 1960s and 1970s, has an interesting and controversial history. Its first spiritual head or "Guru", the charismatic Muktananda, attracted a number of luminous, highly successful adherents, from American astronauts to movie stars to world famous musicians. His successor, the radiantly beautiful "Gurumayi" had her own cadre of accomplished and beautiful people as well as what was at one time an ever expanding global movement it liked to call its Meditation Revolution. *** In 1983, 1993 and 1994, a series of magazine articles explored the darker side of the Siddha Yoga movement - one that involved credible stories of Muktananda's sexual behavior with his devotees, the ardent, even violent attempts made by his closest associates to silence this story, and a handful of other incidents that cast a shadow on SYDA's otherwise glowing story about itself. *** Since the publication of the article in the New Yorker on Nov 13 1994, an internet movement has emerged among devotees and ex devotees who wish to discuss their experiences in Siddha Yoga. In January of 2003, Joan (Radha) Bridges published a story in the Leaving Siddha Yoga website about her personal sexual encounter with Muktananda. No one from SYDA has openly argued with her account, though representatives from the South Fallsburg ashram in upstate NY did visit her and did ask after her personal welfare. *** Most serious yoga students either take the story about Muktananda at face value or know people who can confirm its truth. SYDA's continuing effort to stonewall on this matter has lost it countless adherents though new people show an interest in Siddha Yoga every day. *** SYDA's charter states clearly that it cannot exist without a "living Guru" as it central operating principle. Gurumayi/Chidvilasananda continues to play this nearly godlike role for her adherents in absentia, though her books and other writings seem to be readily available via the Siddha Yoga website and many other outlets like Amazon.com. Small, private SYDA "study circles" continue to support people who choose to pursue thus path to "awakening" the awareness of spiritual energy ("kundalini shakti") in themselves. *** Last year Gurumayi celebrated her 25th Jubilee as the head of Siddha Yoga without making an appearance at any major Siddha Yoga event. She opened this year with a pre-recorded New Year talk (once a staple of the SYDA path after the article was published in 1994) exhorting her "students" to "study" Muktananda's widely read though currently disputed spiritual autobiography Play of Consciousness. *** Since the summer of last year, in addition to the Leaving Siddha Yoga website which has been in existence since the mid 1990s, two additional websites emerged on blogger: The Guru Looked Good, hosted by a former SYDA staffer, and Rituals of Disenchantment. Both host discussion sites that are active on a daily basis. The first is mostly sympathetic to those who question Siddha Yoga, the second is open to a wider population. *** There are two yahoogroups associated with Siddha Yoga - SGMKJ, for devotees, and exSY, for those who have left Siddha Yoga. *** The website for Siddha Yoga and the Ganeshpuri ashram where Gilbert spent time in India can be found by a simple Google search, as can the numerous websites established by people who have left the movement. *** Liz Gilbert probably keeps this information from her readers because she wants to see them focus on the book and its story, not Siddha Yoga or its Gurus and their stories. She may also want to avoid giving the appearance of being a media representative for SYDA.

Thanks for the regards, Anon at 7:03I was checking...

2008-01-31T08:03:00.000-08:00

Thanks for the regards, Anon at 7:03

I was checking in here again and reviewing what many folks found irksome about the "no vengeful anger" (note: they missed that I never said "no anger").

What struck me was the interweaving in this thread of posts about Estee's piece and posts about Obama. What do I appreciate so much about Obama? It's his breadth of vision and his unifying presence. Now, the man isn't coming out of a cult. But that isn't the point. There are a million reasons in this world one could get fired up by anger, even vengeful anger. If some of the things said about him were said about me, I can't promise you how I'd respond...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have some (imho) highly positive models for handling anger in ways that might appear to be "keeping the lid on," but that can actually be healthy for us as individuals and for this country as a whole. Just my opinion, of course.

Dear Zennie, excellent points on anger.Thank you....

2008-01-31T07:32:00.000-08:00

Dear Zennie,
excellent points on anger.Thank you. I agree..anger is a survival mechanism built into virtually every species, a fear reaction. Just try and help a wild animal hit by a car...as you approach, every atom of that animal's energy is focused fear and that fear manifests as rage...a badly wounded animal can manage to run away from your "help" propelled by rage and fear. You can see incredible rage in a two year old child's eyes when he/she is told to do something not on his/her agenda. It can make parents really uncomfortable to be around that kind of energy. It's extremely concentrated and extremely powerful.
Since it IS so powerful, human beings have found ways of sublimating it...and, unfortunately, manipulating it...wars mostly.
I like the approach of understanding it as a powerful energy which (when understood) can be the source of alot of information. If we allow ourselves to fully feel the anger and get to the REAL source of it, it can be very interesting to find out what it is we're afraid of. If we just sweep it under the rug as an "unacceptable emotion", it will find ways of seeping out into the world. I don't think it's particularly helpful to use anger as a weapon and that includes the more subtle forms of anger (passive-agression, sarcasm, extreme criticism, etc.).This seems like just a way of getting it out of our own bodies and projecting it onto somebody else. But I also feel it's not helpful to layer on "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" on top of a festering wound. There IS a "righteous anger"...but it is impersonal and not emotional..imho. I'd never thought of the "smoke detector" function..that's a good one! thanks for your interesting thoughts.

"It takes effort and energy to suppress a basic ex...

2008-01-31T07:03:00.000-08:00

"It takes effort and energy to suppress a basic experience such as anger--it is tied to our biological fight/flight response, rooted in our bodies and thus not fully controllable and eradicable by our conscious will. So to totally suppress anger means living with constant constriction and energy drain. Eventually the bliss inducing practices of the anger phobic group will not work--you're too low on energy due to anger suppression."

Me in a nutshell. What I like about this post is that it gives me something for NOW. Not just a rehash of the past or analysis, but gives me a boost to be more real now in this very minute.

Still endless ragging is a PIA for listeners. Needs balance, needs insight. I get that and appreciate J's point, which I know was not intended as SY mind control. Calmer states of mind are conducive to creative problem solving, when you can achieve them. ;-)

Regards to you J. It's an important observation you made about the impact of Estee's post.

"Is it that former members were so well programmed...

2008-01-31T06:49:00.000-08:00

"Is it that former members were so well programmed that they will continue with their mission despite being in the core of their cult? It's as if the cult's mission was embedded in their souls/psyche and at all costs they must not express or allow to be expressed, an emotion that could make an impact or effect a real change."

January 29, 2008 7:52 AM

Cynthia,

Your post really helped me. I reacted also to what I experienced as an accusation of 'rancour' since I am one of those rancourous posters, well sometimes. I feel really defended by you about this. I was feeling like 'Here I am trying to shed this phony path and they want me to feel good about it?

It's like having a baby and trying to have it be all sweetness and light. I tried having a fairy tale home birth too, and then had to face the fact that life is messy, very messy and you can't really control Reality and the Truth.

I spent many many years suspended in the state you describe, of trying to keep my thoughts about SY neat and tidy. Somehow I must have known if I let in a little truth it would all come down. Marta has shared the same thing. She was not looking to leave SY, it happened by getting truthful with herself.

All the above said, I understand a more moderate tone helps too and is easier to read when checking in here. I am using these blogs as an adjunct to my own healing and I hope it's not too selfish. You are my clan for now and thanks to all for bearing with me. The support is very real to me, although it's just coming through a wire in the wall.

P e a c e

Cynthia wrote:"Why is the alleged absence of emoti...

2008-01-30T07:52:00.000-08:00

Cynthia wrote:

"Why is the alleged absence of emotion (note alleged...)supposedly a good thing?"

This is worth looking at. Ive noticed this same fear of anger in many, many discussions by those who have left abusive groups--especially abusive groups based on Buddhist or Hindu sources.

I made some very grave mistakes ignoring relationships that had gone sour--and I did it by fearing my own anger and by suppressing subtle 'crabby' feelings I had about the person in question.

It turned out the subtle anger that I suppressed was an early sign that the relationship was going in an untruthful, hurtful direction.

IMO the thing to do is not suppress anger, or to privilige it as righteous, but instead to investigate it as a possible source of information. In my case, anger often conceals sadness and fear--or it can be a very early warning sign, like a beep from a smoke detector, that something in my life or relationships is going off kilter.

I am becoming convinced that anger is one form among many of our own life force. It is also information.

I've learned that anger is like a smoke detector. If anger is deleted and devalued from our conscious awareness several things may happen:

* It takes effort and energy to suppress a basic experience such as anger--it is tied to our biological fight/flight response, rooted in our bodies and thus not fully controllable and eradicable by our conscious will. So to totally suppress anger means living with constant constriction and energy drain. Eventually the bliss inducing practices of the anger phobic group will not work--you're too low on energy due to anger suppression.

2) Without the 'smoke detector' function of anger, you lack an early warning system that a fire is smoldering somewhere. Without a smoke detector to give us early warning, our lives and houses could burn down before we are aware of what has happened.

This is never to say anger is to be indulged in out of control ways, but I am convinced that its proper function is to serve as a source of information that we are in a situation that is potentially not good for us.

Any group or leader that wants to control us will try to control the most basic ways our life force flows--anger and sexuality and bliss.

And, among groups and social venues where we are socialized to attach a negative charge to anger, persons who do this, who turn off their inner smoke detector may be more exploitable by abusive people--long before they meet such persons.

It may be those who suffered abuse in families of origin and who learned to fear their anger as tiny children dependent on adults who scared them, may later in life gravitate toward distorted spiritual or false human potential teachings that place negative values on anger--it merely entrenches and rationalizes in spiritual guise what we did to suppress our anger when trying to survive as tiny kids.

Needless to say, this will hamper healing rather than support it. When an entire social venue trains us to fear and devalue anger under spiritual auspices, this is very hard to identify--especially if we have an entire network of cherished friends who share this bias.
Librarian/Zennie