Comments on THE GURU LOOKED GOOD by Marta Szabo: PERSONAL ASSISTANT by Asterisk*

"Anyone have something useful to say about the rec...

2008-02-28T06:57:00.000-08:00

"Anyone have something useful to say about the recent posting, or should we just fuck?"

I have nothing useful to say.
Absolutely, let's just fuck... but I can only do it selflessly. I hope that's ok.

sorry guys, couldn't resist

>>>" your just-now experience."(Stuart) "How you k...

2007-12-25T07:33:00.000-08:00

>>>" your just-now experience."
(Stuart)

"How you keep your mind moment to moment is the important thing," <<<
(Stuart)

Two examples of "zen jargon" or "zen speak". Again, I have no problem with this language (having heard it used many times and understanding that it's sometimes the way these things are spoken about in particular traditions). Just as some of those those drawn to Advaita Vedanta will talk about "abiding in the Self" or ask "who is it that is asking the question", some zen practitioners will talk about "keeping the mind" or "just-now experience". Others (Adyashanti comes to mind) won't use this kind of "lingo", feeling that it creates an unnecessary "setting apart" of experience and understanding from everyday life. You don't hear people born and raised in the USA using the phrases "just-now experience" or "how I keep my mind" unless they have been exposed to zen phraseology. Just to be clear, this is not some kind of criticism of this style of speaking...more a pointing out of inconsistency. If there is a concern about "jargon", then it's helpful to see when we are using it ourselves. But our minds have to be open to seeing this...sometimes they aren't.

>>"It may be necessary and useful to dedicate an h...

2007-12-24T13:49:00.000-08:00

>>"It may be necessary and useful to dedicate an hour a day during a meditation retreat to performing tasks like cleaning and cooking etc. There's no need for weird Sanskrit words for it. Even "Yoga work" is a bit too la-di-da. When I do retreats at (the Zen Center, we have a work period, so you can clean the toilet without having to embrace any propoganda."<<<

OK, just so I'm clear. At the Empty Gate Zen Center (where you practice), members do KIDOS (chant in Korean), 108 prostrations, go to Yong Maeng Jong Jin retreats and have kong-an interviews on Saturdays...according to the schedule. The functioning teacher is a Western guy (who seems really great, by the way) with a "foreign" name. I don't have any objection to this at all; in fact, since it's a Korean tradition, I expect the Korean terminology! but I think it's pretty disingenuous to leap on others for what you, yourself do. "Leap on others" meaning:

" Recently, I attended a vipassana retreat. We had a "yoga job"...an hour of what we used to call "seva"
(anonymous)

I find the use of foreign jargon is a powerful deterrent to critical thinking. What's the deal with seva?? If you want me to clean a toilet, tell me in English dammit! etc. etc.
(stuart)"

So...has it been your experience at Empty Gate Zen Center that the foreign "jargon" has affected your ability to think critically? It certainly doesn't appear so...."critically" being the operative word here.

Anony said...But you seem to assume, given the ten...

2007-12-23T12:26:00.000-08:00

Anony said...
But you seem to assume, given the tenor of your comments to the poster using the phrase "yoga work", that others are caught up in the forms.

You're responding to what you think that I "seem to assume." That's different from what I've actually said.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

Stuart says:"You're just focusing on outer forms h...

2007-12-23T09:06:00.000-08:00

Stuart says:
"You're just focusing on outer forms here. The important thing is how you use the forms, the intention behind them. How you keep your mind moment to moment is the important thing, whatever form you happen to be following."

But you seem to assume, given the tenor of your comments to the poster using the phrase "yoga work", that others are caught up in the forms. Your comments in many forums focus on people's use of special words or practices, and in my perception you seem to assume their intention is unhealthy. You don't assume that about your own use of forms, such as bowing and chanting in a language not your own, but you do seem to assume it about others. As a result of that, when I read your posts about such things I often perceive them as condescending, patronizing. Great if that isn't your intention, but that's how it comes across to this mind.

anony wrote...Zen is as chock full of ritual, dogm...

2007-12-22T16:39:00.000-08:00

anony wrote...
Zen is as chock full of ritual, dogma and "foreign terminology" as any other so-called "path".

I don't see any problem with ritual. But as for dogma... where did you get the idea that Zen has dogma? Maybe you're assuming that. If some teacher has told you that, then I say you should avoid that teacher.

Also, if you think the word or idea "Zen" is important, that's a good thing to throw away. It's just a word that points to your just-now experience.

I've seen those photos of you on your blog...why wear those robes? why chant in a foreign language? why bow?

What's your problem with any of these things? Have you got something against robes??

These are all practices that can be used to put down ideas, opinions, like/dislikes. You're just focusing on outer forms here. The important thing is how you use the forms, the intention behind them. How you keep your mind moment to moment is the important thing, whatever form you happen to be following.

Why criticize other people for doing what you appear to be doing?

When have I ever criticized other people? I don't know what you're talking about.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

In Stuart's defense, what I think he was (poorly) ...

2007-12-22T14:00:00.000-08:00

In Stuart's defense, what I think he was (poorly) trying to articulate was Siddha Yoga's obnoxious use of euphemisms to describe everything.

Funny how everyone wanted to jump all over and attack him at the drop of a hat.

Let's return to the piece at hand, shall we?

Anyone have something useful to say about the recent posting, or should we just fuck?

"Siddhayogis when are you going to learn to stop d...

2007-12-22T08:31:00.000-08:00

"Siddhayogis when are you going to learn to stop defending your participation in SY "

I'm the original anon who posted that comment. And guess what? You made a faulty assumption. I'm not a siddhayogi! (or did you know that and just want to "get to me"?)

In any case, I'm happy the exchange occurred as it did. Because otherwise I would have missed a great laugh this morning over my oatmeal as I read the "let's fuck" comment. Touché! Now go find me an English word that would do that one better!

Siddhayogis when are you going to learn to stop de...

2007-12-22T08:08:00.000-08:00

Siddhayogis when are you going to learn to stop defending your participation in SY by calling the quitters names like "xenophobes" (i.e. "racists")?

It makes you look worse than the person you're criticizing.

__
I'd say it works the other way around. When will all of us EX-siddhayogis stop criticising other EXs for not wishing to come across to the rest of the world as prejudiced against other nationalities. Excuse me, but in cyberspace who exactly is "foreign"?

>>"When I do retreats at the Zen Center, we have a...

2007-12-22T07:39:00.000-08:00

>>"When I do retreats at the Zen Center, we have a work period, so you can clean the toilet without having to embrace any propoganda.',,,

Hi Stuart,
So....if you're doing a retreat and the "work period" arrives, can you say, "no; I'm not interested!" no "la-di-da" niceties..I mean, straight out just say, "no!" and go out for a walk in the park or something? In my experience, zen retreats are about the most rigid retreats I've ever done....(Providence, upstate NY, Midwest, Colorado)..quite formal, people in their little grey "costumes", chanting in a foreign language, eating their food in a ritualistic manner, sitting in a VERY particular meditation posture, bowing when they come in for "dokusan" (ooops! there's another one of those pesky foreign words!).Zen is as chock full of ritual, dogma and "foreign terminology" as any other so-called "path". And it's logical that it would be that way...it is, after all, an imported "tradition", orginating in an extremely rigid, militaristic and misogynistic culture. (not saying it's not a "great traditon" here...just that it IS a tradition with "baggage"). Maybe it's really different in Berkeley but I've seen those photos of you on your blog...why wear those robes? why chant in a foreign language? why bow? Why even go on what is called a "retreat"...retreat from what? if it's all the same thing, Why criticize other people for doing what you appear to be doing? I don't get the distinction.

"Enslavement to Siddha Yoga does not equate to xen...

2007-12-22T05:42:00.000-08:00

"Enslavement to Siddha Yoga does not equate to xenophilia."

Siddhayogis when are you going to learn to stop defending your participation in SY by calling the quitters names like "xenophobes" (i.e. "racists")?

It makes you look worse than the person you're criticizing.

"... I find the use of foreign jargon is a powerfu...

2007-12-21T20:42:00.000-08:00

"... I find the use of foreign jargon is a powerful deterrent to critical thinking. ..."

Next time I seduce a woman, I'll dispense with the niceties and say straight up: "Let's fuck."

That's the ticket. If only I had known it years ago, I could have saved time for other things.

I guess Stuart doesn't consider Zen a "weird" Japa...

2007-12-21T18:29:00.000-08:00

I guess Stuart doesn't consider Zen a "weird" Japanese word (maybe xenophobic but not zen-ophobic :-)). When does a word stop being weird and simply become part of the language?

I've also sat vipassana retreats where I had a "yogi job" or "work meditation"--the terms used interchangeably. Is "yogi" a weird sanskrit word? It's probably in Webster by now! The words "work period" could just as easily become the kind of jargon that Stuart points to. Lots of groups use English phrases that come to have special meanings, to become jargon that sets group members apart--think of the scientologists with their "clear", "implant", "audit" . "Yogi job" works fine as an accurate descriptor for me. It actually feels less la-di-da, to use Stuart's descriptor, than the English "work meditation".

>>>"What's wrong with the term seva?? ',,,I don't ...

2007-12-21T15:39:00.000-08:00

>>>"What's wrong with the term seva?? ',,,

I don't mind the term either....or the concept of "karma yoga" or using the opportunity of doing what needs to be done at a buddhist, hindu, christian, jewish, agnostic,islamic, whatever retreat as an opportunity to pay attention. If you're paying, what's the need for a "work period" if not to VOLUNTEER your services...whatever term you choose to label it with...work, seva,offering, etc., it's still different from going to, say, a rock concert where, if they asked you to help clean up, you'd say, "forget about it", even if they called it a "work period".

What's wrong with the term seva?? You sound like y...

2007-12-21T14:37:00.000-08:00

What's wrong with the term seva?? You sound like you have developed an allergy to a word. But seva is not a property of the SYDA. It is a common term. I suppose you could call it foreign. But, welcome to the 21st century and the era of globalisation and goodbye to xenophobia!

Recently, I attended a vipassana retreat. We had a...

2007-12-20T14:11:00.000-08:00

Recently, I attended a vipassana retreat. We had a "yoga job"...an hour of what we used to call "seva"

I find the use of foreign jargon is a powerful deterrent to critical thinking. What's the deal with seva?? If you want me to clean a toilet, tell me in English dammit!

And don't tell me to do selfless service. If you want the toilet cleaned, then tell me that the toilet needs cleaning. Whether I do it selfishly or selflessly is none of your damn business, as long as I do it.

It may be necessary and useful to dedicate an hour a day during a meditation retreat to performing tasks like cleaning and cooking etc. There's no need for weird Sanskrit words for it. Even "Yoga work" is a bit too la-di-da. When I do retreats at the Zen Center, we have a work period, so you can clean the toilet without having to embrace any propoganda.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

>>"So I said "no, thanks for the offer, but I'm re...

2007-12-18T07:49:00.000-08:00

>>"So I said "no, thanks for the offer, but I'm really not ready to drop my current career at the moment."<<<

too bad, Anon! You missed the chance to learn alot! I learned: how to chop vegetables "correctly" (apparently, I wasn't doing it right even after 35 years of cooking meals for my family), how to wind a vacuum cord (do you know that cords have a "memory"?! amazing!), how to change my "bohemian" decorative taste to one more "in alignment with the shakti" (sparkles and kitch anyone?), how to re-write my "experience" of the truth so that it proved that anything good came from "the guru", how to arrange jewelry,incense sticks,shawls and asanas so they were "irresistable" to potential buyers,how to peel a hundred mangoes, how to wash a dozen toilets, how to make 30 or 40 beds, how to get up at 3am and work, without a break, until 11pm, how to "obey" my superiors, how to disregard birds flying into the glass windows up in Fallsburg (it's their "karma"), how to turn off my critical facilities. I could go on and on...but I won't bore you. Recently, I attended a vipassana retreat. We had a "yoga job"...an hour of what we used to call "seva" in siddha yoga...One of the teachers walked by and saw me carrying a heavy cooking pot..."Oh", he said, "let me help you with that! I was flabbergasted!

hmmmmm.

Yes, I loved your writing too, very fresh... hope...

2007-12-18T04:27:00.000-08:00

Yes, I loved your writing too, very fresh... hope to see more soon!

Pp

Wonderful writing. Crisp clear and evocative. Plea...

2007-12-17T15:36:00.000-08:00

Wonderful writing. Crisp clear and evocative. Please keep it up!

very well written! i hope we'll be seeing more to ...

2007-12-16T18:51:00.000-08:00

very well written! i hope we'll be seeing more to come.

a quick response to anon 4:50- assuming that being a secretary is not interesting or helpful for someone's future, and is "a waste of time" is more than a little elitist...we've yet to see what this job entails. being a personal assistant and a secretary can teach many things to a young person, and be a respectful profession for an adult.

now of course it is beyond rude not to get someone trained and briefed, but that happens in corporations as well.

just some food for thought.

-srs

oh man, keep on goin' asterick! cannot WAIT to re...

2007-12-16T14:02:00.000-08:00

oh man, keep on goin' asterick! cannot WAIT to read the next installment of this thing...you are a great descriptive writer and I love hearing all the strangeness that went on behind the doors that buzzed like mental hospital.

Through this story and other stories Marta herself...

2007-12-14T10:12:00.000-08:00

Through this story and other stories Marta herself posted here, I'm noticing a pattern.

A pattern of words related to trying to cram a human being into a seva that needed a body.

Whether that human being truly "fit" that seva or not.

And the pattern is, the phrase "You'll love it!".

How many times have we read this same phrase over and over on this blog? Some of us even heard it ourselves, when asked to take on a specific new seva or seva change.

I heard it myself once. There was an Information Technology project SYDA needed help with to modernize some of its systems. When people found out I had a career installing, testing, and troubleshooting a similar system, staffers were all OVER me to join the staff and help with that project. My spouse, who had wanted to be an ashramite for years, was THRILLED.

I wasn't. I asked the same kind of questions I'd normally ask a prospective new employer if I was job hunting. Ever mindful of the future, I was simply trying to determine if this would be a career-building experience or a career-destroying experience.

The answers I was getting back weren't to my satisfaction, and since I was in a spot in my career where continued marketable development of myself truly was a critical priority, particularly since I was about 10 years older than I really should have been at that career point, from very deep inside the thought of tossing my career aside to work on the SYDA IT project gave me a case of some really serious willies.

So I said "no, thanks for the offer, but I'm really not ready to drop my current career at the moment."

That earned my wife's wrath and scorn for months and months, even years afterward.

This was around perhaps 8 years ago. I am now so, SO glad that my inner wisdom eye was working healthily at the time. The wisdom to turn SYDA down and not let the cultie in me take over, won the day...and my career.

About a year later, I was at Atma Nidhi and by seeming chance bumped into the guy who would have been my seva chief on that IT project. As it turned out, the project didn't go well, he was bugging out and getting ready to look for new work, since the project had just been cancelled.

And I thought to myself "Ah-HAH. Career-BREAKER." And silently grinned to myself without grinning outwardly.

But I still remember hearing the phrase "You'll love it!".

Unfortunately, from the stories we've read here, a lot of the writers recount their experience with the "You'll love it!" phrase used when the hostage sevite truly never ever really had any true choice in the matter, unless they were ready to leave SY entirely. The decision had been made for them, levels over their own heads, and an answer of "No" wasn't even in the equation.

Lord I thank thee for the obstacles thou didst place in my path toward trying to become an ashramite, and pushing me into the working world instead. Amen.

This story, like the rest of Marta's book and blog...

2007-12-14T07:44:00.000-08:00

This story, like the rest of Marta's book and blog, is so life-giving -- and so frightening to those who would deny life in favor of a religion designed not to glorify god but to glorify a greedy,rapacious human leader.

All of these words that have been written over the...

2007-12-13T23:20:00.000-08:00

All of these words that have been written over the many last months are so painful to read and so real. I know exactly what everyone has written, no matter whether I was there or not. We all want to believe that there was something so special about our time in Siddha Yoga. And for sure, there was something very pivotal in all of our spiritual lives about being there...no matter what the abuses or inequities of this path. The pain of the dillusionment and the unknown....how can any of of us ever understand it? The truth for myself is that it was a necessary part of waking up...even if it means giving up everything that I based my life on in Siddha Yoga for so many many years. And so be it if I have to leave it all behind...in all it's strange glory. It was something that changed me irrevocably. And I have no true idea why it had to take this course, but it was what happened in my life and in the quest for truth. I gave all of myself to it for a long time....and it lead me to this. To take what was given and move on to a greater truth within. It has nothing to do with someone else.

I truly appreciate the fact that many people now are speaking their truth. What is more important? And I thank you for your words and feelings. And

now...it is time to move on to the real truth.

What is that?

It is something that only each one in their own private and intimate relationship with self can endeavor to know. And for me, I know that the time in Siddha Yoga, for all its madness...it has lead me to now. And for that, I am thankful.

I hope everyone will continue to speak their truth. that is all that matters in this way of waking up.

Anonymous

"something to do with Gurumayi’s private work, and...

2007-12-13T16:50:00.000-08:00

"something to do with Gurumayi’s private work, and I was being considered for the position. I felt honored and flattered, to say the least".

Now out of Siddha Yoga, it strikes me how the offer was so incredibly one sided. The narrator as a young woman getting started with her life, 'honored and flattered' to be wasting her time like this. Where is the interest in giving the young woman an interesting internship that would help her later in the real world.