Tuesday, February 26, 2008

GHOSTING ~ Marta

My mother’s house is small and white on about half an acre, a scraggy stretch of grass to the road – scraggy in the best sense, it’s real grass, not clipped and manicured, and she has different plants growing here and there, nothing tidy and Martha Stewart, everything a little ragged, some plants doing well, others that never rooted properly. It’s a quiet road she lives on.

Across the street is a slightly grander house, the kind that’s made to look like it was built in Elizabethan England – white plaster with beams of dark wood. That house was always considered special when I lived in that neighborhood.

I would drive by it, not that often although it was so close to where I lived. I would go by, usually a passenger in an ashram van, returning from the city or perhaps a group run to the bank, and I’d look at that house through the window as the van passed and I’d think how Baba had actually stayed there twenty years ago or so. It was hard to imagine.

Baba was dead now, but I thought of him as a true saint. Not the kind of saint I’d learned about in Catholic school, but a real saint, a person who actually existed and had been as close to me as that house.

The house is almost empty now. One man lives in it. His wife and little girl used to live there. He bought the house and fixed it up and brought his wife, and they adopted a red-headed little girl baby and then my mother moved in across the street and took care of the little girl for seven years and then the wife and the little girl left. I think of these houses and this street as if part of me is still part of that landscape, and I see how quiet it has become.

Just up the road is a small Catskills hotel that in the Borscht Belt heyday was called The Windsor. Then it became a place called Sadhana Kutir, a mass of buildings spread over I don’t know how many acres, but enough for an avenue of bungalows, and several buildings of dormitories, and a few smaller buildings for families and hotel-sized rooms, and offices, and what had once been a nightclub, and the Sewing Room and the Frame Shop, a snack bar, the bookstore warehouse, and a stop for the shuttle bus that came by every twenty minutes – three times an hour – old schoolbuses painted a dark royal blue.

I lived there the last three years of my ashram life, and worked in an office there, and had my two cockatiels there, and scrubbed a lot of bathrooms, and folded dorm-fulls of soft beige polyester blankets there and vacuumed and dusted and chanted and meditated in the small dark meditation room – sound proof, lit only by candles. I drank hot milky sweet perfect chai there at four in the summer morning, waiting for the shuttle to take me in the dark to another part of the ashram where the chant would be happening, the pre-dawn chant that took place every single morning year after year after year without fail with live musicians with microphones and lead chanters up front, and rows and rows of us each holding a chanting book in our right hand at eye-level – the men on one side of the aisle, the women on the other – our backs straight, legs crossed, sitting on the floor, each of us having brought our own meditation kit – a cushion perhaps, certainly an asana, that was the bare minimum, an asana – the rectangle of white wool that Baba had said was the best material to meditate on because the wool absorbed the energy of our meditation, and a shawl -- pretty much everyone had a woolen shawl. Some carried their bundle just loose in their hands, most had a bag to hold it all.

You’d come in, kneel down where you wanted to sit and bow your head to the floor towards the guru’s picture up front – a big framed photograph of her face with her big brown eyes looking right at you – you’d bow to her, and as I’d bow I’d feel it every time, I was bowing to some kernel inside of me, some place inside of me that was her, because we were not separate, I knew that, that was the point.

And then each person would unpack quickly, smoothly because they’d done it so many times before: pillow, asana, book, shawl – and sit and chant.

I drive by now in my own car and look through the chain link fence and the world I knew in there is all gone. It’s something else now, another organization and I can’t read the sign at the entrance, it’s in a different alphabet and it’s not as though what we had there was so great. It wasn’t great at all. It was fraudulent and worse. But part of me hangs over that place and looks down on it and wonders where it all went. I had thought it would last forever. Thought I’d be there forever. And it ran away like water through my fingers.

111 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the story.

I'll never forget the time I spent in Devi, or in the dorm (forget its name), trying hard to sleep in the midst of snores and farts, brushing my teeth while some naked twit who was behind me in line insisted on taking a shower in the same Devi bathroom so that he could to make the Guru Gita bus, telling myself that this is all spiritual, a play as they said. I hated sharing my space with strangers, but thought it was part of the plan.

I too thought it was divine, and would last forever, and wonder where it all went. I spent an afternoon sweeping the entrance lobby of Atma Nidhi, instead of being home to watch the Super Bowl. I used to travel through snow storms in the middle of the night to get there. Now, I have no desire at all. What happened?

I have kept what I like, and ignore the rest. I used to get worked up about the disappointment, but then thought it was only injuring me even more. So I consciously chose to move on, whatever it took. We all have our own path to forge, for int he end we die alone. I stopped listening to the internet chatter a long time ago.

But, thanks for the story. A Jewish Orthodox outfit took over the place, it's now a school of some sort. Is it the same thing?

I do miss those days. It feels like a mirage now. I wish I could have the wasted time back. At least I perhaps have a bit more wisdom now, to take to my death. I'm back in the world, and feel like Rip Van Winkle. Everyone at work, doing the same job, is at least ten years younger than me. I feel old. If only they knew where I'd been all these years. That about sums it up.

As the song goes... "Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day..." See the rest here:

http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/time-dark-lyrics.html


Adios, my beloved friends who went through the same path, I love you all, no matter where you are and how you now think about it. We all have our own ways of processing it, and time is always there. Be strong.

As Alfred Lord Tennyson said:

'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

john said...

Pretty vivid... the feelings you have and express in writing. Such a profound feeling of dispair or desolation. wow!

John

Anonymous said...

I'm not that familiar with your path. I used to practice another spiritual discipline but I like to read peoples' perspectives. I saw you had put something about the book "Eat Pray Love" at the top of your blog so I decided to buy it. I just finished it. It was good. I certainly think the author wrote about India and the ashram in a way that really showed she experienced some transformation. I guess to each his own.

Anonymous said...

Marta, I just I loved the last para -- it's just so beautiful and moving.

I feel the same sense of loss. At one point I had something and it felt so precious. Today it's shattered to pieces. Nothing of it remains. I also thought I'd be in it forever. Today, I have no desire to do all those things I'd done over the years, religiously, day after day, unquestioning.

So much time, so many years. Many of us cant even admit that to loved ones coz they'll say I-told-you-so. Do I feel cheated? Perhaps. Everything I believed in was a mirage? Maybe. In what today feels like another time and space we had the morning chai in the pre dawn darkness, chanted the Guru Gita every morning, swept the floors, bowed and kneeled, and it seemed so natural -- body, mind, soul completely at ease.

Now, the same body, mind, soul rejects everything about it outrightly. I just dont want to go anywhere near a programme, I studiously avoid people I knew from those years. Because they remind me of my naiviette? Foolishness?

Why did I not question anything all these years. What happened? All those years I chanted, meditated, did seva, how come I never bothered to find out about the basics. Was I drunk? How and when did I wake up? The more I try to understand this phenomenon the more it eludes me.

For years we have heard all the 'falling in love' stories and marvelled at how universal this experience is. Now, it is some consolation to see that the 'falling out of love' experience is equally universal if not more.

I am thinking about Swami Madhavananda. He became very quiet during his last few months in the ashram many years ago. Does anybody know his whereabouts? How is he and what is he doing? Was the silence saying something?

Stuart said...

Anony wrote...
Everything I believed in was a mirage?

I don't know of course... but maybe everything that anyone believes in is a mirage!

Why did I not question anything all these years. What happened? ... Was I drunk?

Maybe we were just immature (which is a necessary stage on the way to maturity). When we're young (I mean mental maturity of course, not chronological), we follow blindly. Then over time, we learn to question.

It's all fine to wonder about how and why we made mistakes (?) in the past. Maybe the only solution is to do the best we can right now. That's all we can do after all. As our alcoholic friends say, we can distinguish between what we can and can't change.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

And to this day, reading the detail in your writing makes me miss all of it so acutely. How I long for that feeling again- like longing for the man who I so deeply loved and broke my heart. I don't want to be with him again, I don't want the drama or the pain, but to recreate the feeling in my heart? Is there a way that is sane???

Anonymous said...

I am thinking about Swami Madhavananda. He became very quiet during his last few months in the ashram many years ago. Does anybody know his whereabouts? How is he and what is he doing? Was the silence saying something?



Some years back he moved out of the ashram (GSP) and in to a hut near a forested area in India (can't remember the name). He may have passed away? If I find clarification I'll post it here.

Turn, Turn, Turn (Bob Seeger song)
To everything there is a season...

Anonymous said...

Hi, lovely people...
Yes, for many of us it seems like a mirage, we have all felt (or still feel) cheated... but let time heal the wounds, and end up thinking that our *mistakes* are not *mistakes*, just precious opportunities of growth, let's distinguish the good from the bad parts, and this will allow us to keep the good ones and move FROM there... Have a nive weekend, you all beautiful souls,

Much love,
Pp

Nancy Leigh-Smith said...

Dear Marta and readers,
I recently made my second post on my mirror-of-the-mirror blog and want to repost it here as a comment. As the present-tense-of-look "good" blog has no comments section, I made a "looks bad" blog to write my own comments. I know it's been viewed by people still in sy. Thanks, Marta, for your most recent, starkly poetic post.

Here's my second blog post:

Nothing Exists Which is Not Shiva (except a few people)
Recent posting on the "Looks Good" anonymous blogspot:
"Perhaps during her 10 years Marta missed the part about yoga and the Spanda principle."

For ten years, I heard statements such as: "Once a devotee, always a devotee. No one every really leaves the Guru."
"Everything is shiva." "The bliss of the play of consciousness - what a play, it's all a play." Etc. But this world view is required only of the devotees - not of the guru, the foundation, the organization. The spanda principle evidently spewed the unwanted particles of shiva (outspoken devotees, people with innocent questions, disgruntled South Fallsburg ashram neighbors, journalists, Gurumayi's brother, routinely called "Fatso" by ashram staff) into convenient black holes . The "spanda principle" got tutored!

"Again, these misconceptions of Marta's seem to stem from the fact that she hid from herself by living in an ashram for 10 years. And then when she came to terms she wasn't happy with her existence and that she herself denied herself as a writer, and denied herself a life in the world, she blamed the ashram and yoga for her plight."


If Marta were the only person who ever spoke honestly about her varied experiences in Siddha Yoga, you might have a point. The universality of her experience among former staff and long-term devotees seems to be what kindles your anonymous flaming.

"Once more, we ask, did anyone force you Marta to live in an ashram for 10 years? You were free to leave at any time. It seems that in retrospect, you never should have been there in the first place."

I thought "Everything Happens for the Best." Does this exclude Marta's experiences? Why, if she should never have been there in the first place, did the Guru choose her for public and often prominent seva? "In retrospect" - does the Spanda principle make mistakes?

Few people are willing to write so nakedly and openly about qualities that most people have, and hide. The raw honesty of her writing is sometimes difficult to read, but always evocative. Untutored. I worked on a committee in the ashram that censored Gurumayi's OWN WORDS from her videos! Books, magazines, and media were continually edited to delete the "once devotees, always devotees", controversial statements of speakers (including Muktananda and Gurumayi, and, of course, "fatso" who exists but apparently is emphatically NOT shiva).

None of this is news. Reposting Marta's own internet-published stories isn't, either. (You may in fact be giving her wider readership). This blog is only here because you do not allow comments on your blog. Notice how Marta posts flattering, unflattering and neutral comments. Her words are not sanitized. I'm happy to post occasionally, balancing the "good" with the "bad." Maybe we'll also get into the ugly.

With marginal respect (and not really feeling the love),

Nancy Leigh-Smith

b. said...

Marta,

Just saw this new one. Very poignant.

It seems difficult for you to come to terms with it being over. Your describing it as fraudulent or worse and other comments about feeling cheated perplex me. Yes, there was a promise of something greater, higher, yet isn't it possible that things just got too big and out of hand? Sometimes I wonder how I could have fallen for all that. I was a total groupie! Alot of things disappointed me also. I just want to move on now. It feels like the healthiest thing.

En tous cas, it sure is giving you wonderful material. You write beautifully.

Anonymous said...

You know, Saddna Kutir always gave me the willies. I didn't like working there and changed jobs as soon as I could. But everything happens for the best... my bad understanding got me to the building with a temple and I didn't have to get car sick on that bus.

Anonymous said...

Yes, there was a promise of something greater, higher, yet isn't it possible that things just got too big and out of hand?


While all of the cash, checks and credit card charge receipts were falling all over the place in Finance (so much coming it they could hardly be contained on desks and counter tops), GM and G.A. were having a grand time installing gold faucets and other over the top bathroom touches in the GSP bathroom. Shopping sprees where GM had her slavites doing her bidding, walking through the streets of Manhattan shopping for her. Only the finest of make-up and clothing garments would do.

When the queen finally had enough for her retirement account, she exited stage left. Until then she somehow managed to put up with the "ordinary" people of SY, those who actually built and maintained the SY empire.


Sometimes I wonder how I could have fallen for all that. I was a total groupie! Alot of things disappointed me also. I just want to move on now. It feels like the healthiest thing.


I believe this is why some people take the time and effort to explore why they fell for it, how they were hooked in and submitted to it for any number of years. It is through this process of inquiry, writing (for some) and healing that they can protect themselves from falling prey to such a situation in the future.

Anonymous said...

Hey taking the time and effort to explore why they fell for it is a good thing. In how you wrote this paragraph I sense you've resolve it for yourself and won't fall prey in the future. Yet the way you describe the queen finally having enough for her retirement account, shows a vulnerability which keeps you unprotected... it seems to me anyway.

Some of these postings seem to lack the process of inquiry you describe so beautifully. That's what I was referring to when I said I wanted to move on.

b.

Anonymous said...

>>" Your describing it as fraudulent or worse and other comments about feeling cheated perplex me"<<

not me! promise:a "golden path" with a "living master" (without whom "liberation" is impossible)...reality: a shoddy "quasi-Hindu" scam, a "disappeared 'guru'", delusion in the place of "liberation", thousands of dollars spent, health compromised, career down the toilet, waking up to "the truth" only after leaving! If it was a "weight loss" scheme, I'd be suing! lol!
keep on keeping on Marta.

b. said...

I'm truely sorry that you lost THAT much. My heart goes out to you. I also sacrificed alot in regards to my career, but I guess I was aware of that choice I was making at the time. Syda actually spent thousands on me which I really appreciated, and I was no one special, no celebrity, etc.

Anonymous said...

b.--
I'm really curious. In what way did Syda spend thousands on you? And why were you singled out for that?

Anonymous said...

Marta,
Another wonderful piece! Poignantly detailed; precise in capturing images and feelings. Thank you so much! Love, DeAnn

Kat said...

Marta, I just found your blog, and I love reading all these experiences in interesting short-story format! So creative. One day when time allows I will contribute.

Anonymous said...

"Syda actually spent thousands on me which I really appreciated, and I was no one special, no celebrity, etc."
March 6, 2008 12:58 AM
"I'm really curious. In what way did Syda spend thousands on you? And why were you singled out for that?"
March 6, 2008 7:54 AM

The money that Gurumayi spent did not really belong to Gurumayi. The money was ours, given out of love. In some spiritual orders, monks take vows of poverty, so that as stewards for their flock, they have that boundary about things material. At this moment writing this I am begining to seethe at the thought of all the diamonds I saw on hats, lapels and the wrists of Gurumayi over the years. Why didn't that bother me more then? I just thought somehow it was right to dress the devi.

I know no one really wants to be litigious, that being feel driven to it by anger, but a class action suit against SY to reclaim resources can seem appealing sometimes. At any rate, it would seem with her losing half of GSP to her brother, that justice is being served to some extent. C'est la vie.

Anonymous said...

I, too, have spent a long time struggling with the dark side of Siddha Yoga. Years, in fact: since about 2000 when I first became aware of this site. I went through years of fear, pain, grief and confusion.

Only recently have I finally come to the conclusion that everything does and did happen for the best.

I now see that if I did offer my money, devotion, seva, my heart and my mind to the Supreme Guru, or sincerely believed Guru was the Supreme Guru, then it matters little whether Gurumayi and her organisation was for real or false, because I offered it all to the real Supreme Guru who is formless and universal, and it would all have been received by God accordingly. What God allowed others to do with it all was no longer my business once I had offered it. What Gurumayi and her organisation did is between her and God. What I did was between me and God.

And if my heart was not entirely pure or sincere in my offerings - whose was? for if I was already perfect then I'd already be one with the Supreme Guru - then it's not too late to re-offer it again and again to the Supreme Guru, Shiva, Brahman... whatever you want to call it. I find this practice extremely purifying and is a powerful heart-opener, for it detaches me from what I offered years ago.

Karma will always be dealt with by the universe, and no one can escape it.

In any event, the dark side of SY is nothing but Jungian shadows within ourselves, which only we ourselves can eventually resolve. That is sadhana which will continue within each of us individually.

I came to the conclusion that I grew a huge amount spiritually as well as became a better human being, through SY, darkside and all, through continuing the practices. The discipline of my mind (though nowhere near perfect) that I have achieved compared with my pre-SY days alone is priceless. I am older and wiser, calmer, more tolerant and compassionate towards others. That's got to be an important purpose of my life, even if in worldly terms I may seem to have "lost" or "wasted" something or other, and am now poorer than pre-SY days. But God knows what would my life be like now had I not been in SY for 20 years. It's a meaningless speculation because it happened the way it happened.

For a few years I struggled about whether to find myself another Guru, etc. Luckily I never gave up the practices, though I experimented with doing away with the pictures, etc. Finally I realise I can just continue my sadhana on my own, with my asana, my mantra, meditation and contemplation. I continue to study yogic texts and chants, especially Kashmir Shaivism which SY never properly taught. I find Swami Lakshmani Joo (long dead) a very holy and compassionate soul. I just have to look at his picture and I find a lot of solace. Somehow I now manage to worshship the formless Guru and do my practices on my white asana but without the pictures.

Another one of the best remedies I have found is the continuing practice of self-inquiry: "who am I?" and I find looking at Ramana Mahashi's picture extremely helpful.

I have finally stopped torturing myself about "how come....." Finally I am at peace with myself. So you see, the Inner Guru continues to help me whatever I think of Gurumayi. If Gurumayi is for real, her love for me would be unconditional: not conditional upon what I think of her. If not, once again, what I think of her matters little; and what she thinks of me matters not at all. I have finally overcome the conflicting fears of "what if I was worshipping a false Guru", and "what if I offend/commit blasphemy" against a real Sadguru. What matters is what I think of my own Self and my Inner Guru, and the purpose of my sadhana.

So I think I am finally "over" Siddha Yoga, whatever it was, and is.

But all of that I have managed, through struggling with the stories on this site, culminating with Marta's posts which ring very true and honest. I certainly know of current SY devotees who are still in complete denial, and are in fear of reading the stuff on this site though they know of this site. They can't handle this huge elephant in the room and I beleive their eventual disillusionment is going to be even more painful than mine.

So a big thank you to you all. And God bless you all whatever you do.

Anonymous said...

dear march 7, 2008 --

thank you so much for your inspiring post - indeed the 'true guru' would not be offended one way or another, and the fact that your 'inner guru' is leading you to keep doing the practices really reminds me that THE PRACTICES were the only really worthwhile thing for me in the ashram anyway (that and meeting some really lovely people).

while reading your post something clicked in my head and i realize now that the practices (by which i mean mostly meditation, chanting and reading scritures) remain free and open to all - absent of all SY baggage -after all, meditation and chanting existed long before SY and will exist long after.

i think somehow i have been resiting doing those practices that i once loved, because i so deeply associate them with GM and co.

but truly the quest for knowledge and experience of my own SELF as generated through the practices of mediation and chanting really do exist independant of some persons called malti shetty, richard gillette or george affif. haleluia! thank you for shining the light!

pat said...

Thanks for these latest posting which demonstrate the kind of inquiry which has lead to feeling happier and calmer… people who have found some form of spirituality that works for them and not having to reject or shit on anything and especially themselves in the process.

b. said...

To the curious one …
who wants to know how and why Syda spent so much on me…
I was not alone and I was never singled out… I probably would have enjoyed that however! Unlike Marta, I enjoyed being spoiled with gifts since I had never gotten that kind of attention in my life. In any case, so many received so much in more than just financial ways... much deeper ways.
Look I wouldn’t want to add to your unhappiness… let’s just say I was referring to similar things Marta describes in her memoires. And we’ll leave it at that. Once again, I’m sorry for your troubles and I hope you can find some peace about the whole thing for the sake of your own happiness. The last few postings are very beautiful and offer hope and inspiration for this.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your response (March 7, 2008 6:38 PM). I did not have much time yesterday to give details of my years of struggle with the dark side of SY, and today I would like to share a bit more.

I did give up practising totally for about 3 weeks!!! immediately after I first read the stories on the website at the time run by Pendragon. I was so shocked and distraught.

Through suddenly giving up all spiritual practices my head became seriously dull, my heart extremely heavy and painful, and my mind in turmoil.

I was going nuts. I couldn't stand it and started to ask myself some serious questions. Such as: what was I REALLY looking for in SY? What did I think I was doing? And how come it was so easily shattered and yet there was so much that seemed real and so good? How could all that mix of good and bad be separated?... etc.

I started to look at other yoga schools. I read ferociously books by Swami Sivananda, the swamis of the Ramakrishna Order, Swami Satyananda, books on Ramana Marharshi and his school of yogic thought..... I gained insight into Hinduism and what yoga is really about.....

I visited various ashram of the above and even did a couple of short courses to find out more about their schools.

But I couldn't bring myself to join another yoga school. The customs and chants were too different. I wasn't about to learn all the new bhajans and chants and customs all over again. And I hated having to explain to people that I wasn't exactly a complete novice in meditation, and yet new to their path..... And I was in no mood to join in the activities of the devotees of these yoga schools, and so I was a loner in their midst for brief times. I was f***ed!

And yet I simply couldn't give up on my quest, or my Self.

I went to Germany a few times to have Mother Meera's darshan. I went to get a hug from Amma every time she came to town. I periodically went to church and repented.....

I had therapy, bodywork and accupuncture, to help releive the pain.

I briefly looked at Taoism and Zen..... I did arts courses on self-expression.....

I talked to people who had been kicked out of TM, and someone who was once a buddhist monk.

I read Karen Armstrong's "Through the Narrow Gate" and "the Spiral Staircase" and found them extremely inspiring and touching.

I prayed to the universe, the formless God, furiously: now lamenting and then offering thanks....., now beseeching God and then praying for grace.....

I bowed down to heaven and earth, the sun and the moon, the four directions.....; I bowed down to all the sages and saints before and up to our times; I bowed down to my ancestors and guardian angels.....

And gradually I restartd meditating, on my breath, on Soham which is universal and does not require any initiation from any Guru. Somehow or other it gradually dawned on me Om Namah Shivaya does not belong to SY. It is the initiation mantra of all Shaivites through time immemorial.....

Tentatively I allowed Om Namah Shivaya to resume repeating itself in my meditation. I began to do japa in earnest again.....

The mantra I find the most wonderful and powerful: it is my real Self; it is my Inner Guru. It purifies my nadis, and removes psychological/emotional blocks. It helps me forgive myself and others. I gets me centred and helps me breathe slower and deeper.

Om Namah Shivaya: it is the supreme mantra of the Universe which is my Inner Self. It belongs to no one. It cannot be trademarked or copyrighted. No one can make money out of it without dire consequences. It belongs to God. It belongs to all.

Om Namah Shivaya.

Now I am offering my seva working as a volunteer in a very worthwhile charity project, offering help to really desperate people. I do this seva as much as possible with an attitude of non-doership and do japa as continuously as I can when I am "helping" these people, thinking of their Inner Self that is no different from my Inner Self. When I get home, I pray and re-offer it all over again to God so I don't take on the karma, good and bad, of this volunteer work. All this kind of thing I learned through my journey outside SY per se, from people like Mother Meera and all the other yogis that I read about.

Life is good, despite all the hardships. I think I have just about recovered.

Anonymous said...

Thank you to those explaining in detail how they have resumed their practice. Your experiences are very familiar. I cannot get rid of Om Namah Shivaya, it plays constantly in my head. As was described it seems ridiculous to have to begin again on creating meditation disciplines when one already has an established practice. It really helps me to hear descriptions of your recovery. BTW I totally s**t on myself over SY, because I allowed particularly egregious abuse to occur both from Gurumayi and George Afif. At the same time I received so much. It is this kind of dissonance that has made recovery so hard.

One issue coming into focus however is that I seem to need a relationship with a personal God. Baba, Gurumayi were personal to me. Shiva is just not so personal or maybe I need to understand him in a different way. At any rate it sure would be relaxing to let go of stopping the ever present mantra.

Thanks again.

Anonymous said...

>> The last few postings are very beautiful and offer hope and inspiration for this."<<<

Hey, it's all good! some people still like to repeat mantras; some people don't. Some people get angry; some people don't.Some people express "beautiful thoughts" about what they learned from siddha yoga; others express their indignation. Some people turn to other gurus; other people don't. Some people wouldn't touch om namah shivaya with a ten foot pole; other people feel it's timeless ... It's ok to think, "everything happens for the best"...because, you know what, it's going to happen whether we think it's "for the best" or we think we know a better way. Best to co-operate in the manner that seems most natural to each individual....as the Buddha said, "as many ways to enlightenment as there are incarnated sentient beings".
Peace Out

Anonymous said...

b. said...
To the curious one …
who wants to know how and why Syda spent so much on me…
I was not alone and I was never singled out… I probably would have enjoyed that however! Unlike Marta, I enjoyed being spoiled with gifts since I had never gotten that kind of attention in my life. In any case, so many received so much in more than just financial ways... much deeper ways.



The response dodges the questions asked rather effectively. It reminds me of how SY would deflect questions never answering them directly and to the point.

Anonymous said...

Before I heard about SY I was a practicing Christian. The main thing I liked was the idea of having a living master... Jesus just seemed so far away. For me repeating a "new" mantra Om Namah Shiviya was weird at the time. My whole 10 years in the ashram besides repeating the mantra which I began to really love, I also constantly repeated "Hail Mary, full of grace" and the Lord's prayer, which somehow I never felt any conflict about. So even though I'm no longer involved in SY, I feel no conflict about Om namah shivaya.

Also I'd just like to say when I first got involved in SY, I noticed that there was alot of the same bull and crap I got at church. And I still think that there can be crazy people and dysfunctional stuff as well as, to use Madri's word... "fraudulant" stuff in ALL organized religions, cults, groups, families, whatever. At least that is MY opinion.

AMEN!

b. said...

"The response dodges the questions asked rather effectively. It reminds me of how SY would deflect questions never answering them directly and to the point."

You conviniently ignored where I wrote: "Look I wouldn’t want to add to your unhappiness… let’s just say I was referring to similar things Marta describes in her memoires. And we’ll leave it at that."

Did you even read all of Marta's memoires? She talks openly about stipends and gifts. I didn't feel I had to repeat what she already wrote.

I get the feeling that you are just hell bent on coming to the worst conclusions no matter what anyone says. Fine! then it's true, everyone got more than you! YOU are the only one who was left out.

Kat said...

Marta,

There is such sadness to this. You say it wasn't great at all but you thought it would last forever and you'd be there forever...and it ran away like water through your fingers... you were so sad that you quit and call it fraudulent. I can really understand, yet I wonder if you allowed yourself to truely grieve the loss. Grief can be mighty powerful to overcome. Makes us do unreasonable things... I still don't talk to an uncle who did something to me at my mother's funeral. I know that grief is really about losing her and I'm still taking it out on him.

Anonymous said...

You conviniently ignored where I wrote: "Look I wouldn’t want to add to your unhappiness… let’s just say I was referring to similar things Marta describes in her memoires. And we’ll leave it at that."

Did you even read all of Marta's memoires? She talks openly about stipends and gifts. I didn't feel I had to repeat what she already wrote.

I get the feeling that you are just hell bent on coming to the worst conclusions no matter what anyone says. Fine! then it's true, everyone got more than you! YOU are the only one who was left out.



All that to still not answer the questions asked. Deflection in its array of presentations.

Anonymous said...

>>"I get the feeling that you are just hell bent on coming to the worst conclusions no matter what anyone says. Fine! then it's true, everyone got more than you! YOU are the only one who was left out"

Sorry! I had the exact same reaction as B when you brought up the money spent on you and then got all coyly secretive about it. To me, this is such a typical siddha yoga set up:bring up a subject and then try to make the person who questions you feel like a loser as you pretend to "protect her feelings"...Thank god we don't have to just swallow it anymore.

s.

Anonymous said...

>>"There is such sadness to this. You say it wasn't great at all but you thought it would last forever and you'd be there forever...and it ran away like water through your fingers... you were so sad that you quit and call it fraudulent. I can really understand, yet I wonder if you allowed yourself to truely grieve the loss"

Dear Kat,
I think your sequence is a little off here and maybe that's why it's hard to see what Marta's up to...I think she quit siddha yoga first, then she was sad because what she had believed in was "fraudulent". Then she explored (through the memoir form) her involvement, examined her own deep feelings and used (and is using) her creativity to "grieve the loss" of something that had once meant so much to her and to come to terms with it.
There is a real poignance in memory....as evidenced in the work of Proust, Kundera and most writers who work with their own lives as a source of inspiration. Art has a power to transform.


s/

Anonymous said...

Also..regarding the mantra om namah shivaya: I would suggest that anyone who is still using it post-siddha yoga educate him/herself in tantric mantra sadhana so that he/she understands exactly what is going on when the mantra is repeated endlessly. "An informed consumer is the best consumer".

Anonymous said...

whoops! sorry...I got the names confused..it was "b" who was playing hide and seek and "anonymous" (called "the Curious One"..lol) who was asking the questions.

and "B", I'm the one who "lost" so much and was joking about it...somehow I don't think you are "truely" (sic) sorry for my loss. Like you, I was well aware of what I was losing when I was losing it...what I thought I was "getting" in return was a direct line to pure consciousness through "the guru"...that was the "deal", right? I give up everything..."surrender to the 'guru'" and, in return, I get "liberation" ( 12 years,tops, it was supposed to take...according to muktananda..lol). I mean, not to be crass about it but why were we all there if it wasn't "liberation" we were after? I would have done anything to break through to "god"... I was quite deluded (like most siddha yogis, "educated" in the "Hindu Lite" tradition of siddha yoga) as to what "the Self" was and where "the Self" was dwelling. Well, in retrospect, it was a "learning experience" as they say. I understand some things I didn't understand before I met "gurumayi and company"...never allow the responsibility for your inner life to be manipulated by someone else even if everyone around them, the songs they sing, the prayers they repeat and the practices you are given are set up to encourage that to happen. Most of all: "beware of wolves in orange robes" and, "don't be a sheep".


s


s.

Anonymous said...

Dear b--
I'm the anon who asked the original question about your statement that Syda spent many thousands on you. I did not write the response you have addressed comments to, but I could have. I assure you I do not feel left out--what a patronizing assumption!

Your further explanation clarified for me that what you meant was that GM gave you a lot of gifts. That has quite a different connotation for me than "Syda spending thousands" on you, which was what you originally claimed. It might be technically the case that the gifts came from Syda, but the connotations of personal gifts are vastly different from your original statement. Since I had never heard of the foundation spending large amounts of money on anyone who wasn't a celebrity, a major donor, or perhaps a scholar, I was curious. Funny how you see defensiveness in that curiosity, and how defensive your response to the question was.

Stuart said...

Anonymous said...
I seem to need a relationship with a personal God.

It's vital for everyone to have relationship with a personal God. The point is which person to see as God. Why not try to make it the person you're relating to right now? It doesn't matter who it is: they're already God, 100%.

regarding the mantra om namah shivaya: I would suggest that anyone who is still using it post-siddha yoga educate him/herself in tantric mantra

Mantra has enormous power. It may sometimes be useful to understand where that power comes from. The source of the power comes from 3 thing: (1) the time and effort you put into it, (2) the belief you have in it, and (3) the intention, the reason why you repeat the mantra.

Look into these 3 factors. Anything else is an irrelevent distraction. The words of the mantra you happen to use make no difference.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

kat said...

Hey guys, this is getting soooo confusing talking about "s" & "b" and all the different anonymous's!!! And then all the different quotes... Is there any way we can distinguish each other with bold or italics or it at asking too much of a google blog...?

Anyway my general comment to all: I don't see any differences between gifts, stipends, plane tickets, cash for protein powder, money for physical therapist to name a few from my personal experiences. Maybe that's what "b" if I have the name right, was talking about.?

In any case someone replied about Marta's grief and I won't quote it, but what you wrote made alot of sense, so thank you.

I also think some of us are working through the grief and some of us are hellbent on seeing the worst and it's all fine.

Hey what's a blog for...

Kat

Anonymous said...

Re: Mantra
"The source of the power comes from 3 thing: (1) the time and effort you put into it, (2) the belief you have in it, and (3) the intention, the reason why you repeat the mantra.

Look into these 3 factors. Anything else is an irrelevent distraction. The words of the mantra you happen to use make no difference."
Stuart
March 11, 2008 11:14 AM

Hey Stuart,
Loved your comment to 'love the one you're with' wasn't that Crosby/Stills? ;-) It is good advice, but sometimes we are alone, in our heads, then who do we address. I like to use the form of 'you' when I talk to the being behind all this, whatever it is. But you point is well taken. Wasn't that what 'See God in Each Other' was about? It was a very good line. SY didn't really provide the tools to actually do that. So many complained about how ashram staff were haughty, self-centered, completely preoccupied with themselves and their proximity to the Guru.

On the mantra, I am not sure I go along with you, I thought the sound of the letters/vowels actually create. So saying 'peanut butter and jelly' will get me just as much as 'om namah shivaya'. Do you really mean that?

Glad to see you posting again. :-)

b. said...

Patronizing huh? Ok.
But I WAS sorry since despite getting a lot, I also lost a great deal. And I didn't get the impression the response was "joking" so it seemed that I was making this person feel worst!!!

Ok, so I was "special" in your terms since I was a major donor.
But I only became a major donor after I was flown as a guest to the tour in California from Boston. Never knew why. It just seemed like one of those magical things that seemed to happen. I was on staff after that and for me stipends can add up to thousands.

Personally I could never relate to the concept of liberation, per se. I was just happy to feel better and be with people who seemed to have the same values.

b.

Anonymous said...

>>>"Ok, so I was "special" in your terms since I was a major donor.
But I only became a major donor after I was flown as a guest to the tour in California from Boston. Never knew why. It just seemed like one of those magical things that seemed to happen. "<<

Well....this is not addressed to me, I don't think...but, gosh, if I couldn't "connect the dots" in this situation, I guess I too would feel puzzled by why others who are ex-siddha yogis might feel used and betrayed. Don't you think that the "powers that be" in your local center might have been aware that you had the capability to become a "major donor"? and that might be the "magical reason" you were flown to California? I mean, you're talking about Boston here, right? One of the oldest and most competitive centers in sidda yoga...the home of the first Syda "CEO". Believe me, they knew who had the money to give and who didn't, who had the "sweat equity", who had the "intellectual cred", who had the creative talent...everyone was observed and used. I speak from experience.

s.

Anonymous said...

"Also..regarding the mantra om namah shivaya: I would suggest that anyone who is still using it post-siddha yoga educate him/herself in tantric mantra sadhana so that he/she understands exactly what is going on when the mantra is repeated endlessly. "An informed consumer is the best consumer"."

Thanks for the consumer update. What research sources did you have in mind and what would an educated consumer find there?

Anonymous said...

Ok, so I was "special" in your terms since I was a major donor.
But I only became a major donor after I was flown as a guest to the tour in California from Boston. Never knew why. It just seemed like one of those magical things that seemed to happen. I was on staff after that and for me stipends can add up to thousands.



This is a classic SY set-up. They have people who scroll the rosters to figure out who has money (Muk had Malti do this for him. He taught her well). They were priming you to become a major donor. They hope it all seems "magic" so that no one is the wiser to their agendas.

This is one of the reasons some people take the time to seriously contemplate and heal from their time in SY. They want to open their eyes and understand the many aspects of their involvement so they do not become hooked in to other situations like this in the future.

Anonymous said...

>>"Also..regarding the mantra om namah shivaya: I would suggest that anyone who is still using it post-siddha yoga educate him/herself in tantric mantra sadhana so that he/she understands exactly what is going on when the mantra is repeated endlessly. "An informed consumer is the best consumer"."

Thanks for the consumer update. What research sources did you have in mind and what would an educated consumer find there?"<<

It's a very complex subject, classic mantra sadhana...with loads of books..both clear and obscure, available here and in India. Ex-syda has an extensive reading list that covers an introduction to Tantra (including mantra sadhana) with many good suggestions.
Basically, though, I would say that even with a very "generic" initiation (such as that given by gurumayi or muktananda into the om namah shivaya mantra) you (as the receiver) are being connected to them energetically. That's what "initiation" is about (Swami Sivananda's explanation is pretty clear for an introduction). You may remember, in fact, when you first "received" the mantra being told something along the lines of "the guru gives you the experience of the mantra, something of his/her state, during initiation". You can't disentangle om namah shivaya from the guru who "gave" it to you so every time you repeat it, you are repeating and deepening that connection. If that's what you want, ok. But if you don't then you are better off finding another mantra to repeat. If you just pick up a book and choose om namah shivaya to repeat, it's a different situation. When a guru "gives" you a mantra, there are strings attached to it...that's the point. Some people discount the whole thing and feel saying nonsense words or any words at all have the same effect ("if you believe"). I would disagree but it's up to each person to educate him or herself and come to his/her own conclusion about the subject. If you're going to do a "practice", better to understand what you're doing.

Anonymous said...

"Also..regarding the mantra om namah shivaya: I would suggest that anyone who is still using it post-siddha yoga educate him/herself in tantric mantra sadhana so that he/she understands exactly what is going on when the mantra is repeated endlessly. "An informed consumer is the best consumer".

March 11, 2008 7:18 AM"

Dear Anon 3/11/08 7:18 AM:

Some of us truly live lives where we just aren't afforded the TIME to do the research on tantric mantra sadhana. May I ask you to elaborate on specifically what points you were attempting to caution people about? In my own case, It is nearly 3 years since completely quitting SY and even today, I have to "catch" myself when "Om Namah Shivaya" starts automatically repeating itself in my head. It actually becomes a dharana in and of itself for me: Watching for ONS to start up, and then concentrate on stopping it.

How does the repetitive japa (willful or mindlessly automatic) of Om Namah Shivaya actually AFFECT a person?

I am hoping you are willing to clarify and elaborate further.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

>>>"I have to "catch" myself when "Om Namah Shivaya" starts automatically repeating itself in my head. It actually becomes a dharana in and of itself for me: Watching for ONS to start up, and then concentrate on stopping it.

How does the repetitive japa (willful or mindlessly automatic) of Om Namah Shivaya actually AFFECT a person?

I am hoping you are willing to clarify and elaborate further."<<

Again, basically, each murti, yantra and mantra are supposed to "lead" to a "merging with the "deity" or "becoming the deity". You could look at "deities" as personifications of certain qualities (from a Western perspective), as "real" as any other part of "reality" depending upon your point of view. Kali and Saraswati, for example, "stand for" very different aspects of the psyche. Shiva is a "deity" of dissolution. Thinking of the 3 phases of "existence" (according to general Hindu thought): creation, maintainence and dissolution and deities such as Saraswati (creation), Lakshmi (maintainence) and Kali (dissolution), you can see why, if your focus was a successful business, you would not repeat a Kali mantra for "success" (this is if you are working within this "system"). Shiva is a deity of dissolution, meaning he represents the removal of all of the veils that cover our basic nature of awakeness. So the "point" of om namah shivaya is the removal of what covers the truth of what we are. There are alot of shrutis and tantras about how this "works"...through vibration along the 72,000nadis...or by creating a sound that affects the nervous system of the body in specific ways...again, if you think about the different response your nervous system has to a leaf blower as opposed to a warbler singing in a tree, you have a basic idea of how this is supposed to work. Imagine 18 hours a day with a leaf blower outside your window or the same amount of time with a warbler and the effect it might have on your mood, your mental state and, eventually, your health. Human beings have a basic "attachment/aversion" program pretty much built in at the survival level and it functions through the senses and the relationship of those senses to the mind through the nervous system.
I guess the reason I would not repeat om namah shivaya (aside from the fact that I don't do much mantra japa anymore) is the connection to gurumayi and muktananda which I do not want in my "system" in any way. If I were doing mantra sadhana, I would view om namah shivaya as "polluted" (within that system) because of how I received it and under what circumstances: I did a great deal of mantra japa (in Fallsburg and GSP with swamis and others I now consider people I do not want any kind of association with).My reaction might be a little strong because of things I've observed since leaving siddha yoga.
When a mantra comes up automatically it just means you have "created the mantra groove" they used to talk about in the week-long course at Fallsburg by persistant repetition. It's kind of like those songs from your teen years you still remember the words to ...decades later. If you just let it go, it will leave eventually. If you get in a big snit about "stopping it", it will probably persist longer than it otherwise would..."what you resist really DOES persist", imho.
Again, all of this is simply how this "system" is supposed to "work"..whether or not one "believes" in it is a matter of choice . Since you asked, I hope this information is helpful to you. From the outside, it all seems a bit "silly" but, from the inside, it has its own reality.

best wishes,
mantra anon.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for all the mantra talk everyone.

I am working with something in English right now. Won't share the Name* of the deity, so as to remain non-denominational:

Name*, Name*, Name*, Giver of Light, Fill My Mind with Peace and My Heart with Love.

It is kind of long, but I am finding it centering.

Thanks for hanging around all.

Anonymous said...

“… the connection to gurumayi and muktananda which I do not want in my "system" in any way. If I were doing mantra sadhana, I would view om namah shivaya as "polluted" (within that system) because of how I received it and under what circumstances: I did a great deal of mantra japa (in Fallsburg and GSP with swamis and others I now consider people I do not want any kind of association with).My reaction might be a little strong because of things I've observed since leaving siddha yoga.”

----------

Thank you for writing that comment Mantra Anon. I think the crux of the matter for some of us is if pollution of the ONS mantra extends beyond merely psychological associations. Various forms of generic explanations of deity worship and mantra methodology are readily available out there. What seems elusive is an explanation of how a tantric adept like Muk, or perhaps Chid to a lesser extent, could infuse the ONS with some kind of power that works on the mind/body of the repeater in pre or parapsychology.

As you probably know, SY explained mantra awakening as facilitated by an occult process called guru caitanya mantra, i.e. the guru’s power enlivens the mantra making it readily available to the devotee who otherwise might have had to engage in hundreds of thousands of repetitions to garner the same effect. I read a book by Swami Rama who attested that certain Himalayan yogis “realized” specific mantras that granted the repeater small siddhis, and that these mantras could be passed full strength to another. Still, I haven’t come across anything to indicate that this caitanya process can be extended to tens of thousands of devotees, very often through the conveyance of an impersonal mantra card no less. In a way, to suspect that the ONS is esoterically polluted is to accept the notion of a caitanya like effect, only in this case the caitanya influence has certain malevolent qualities – entrapment over liberation.

There isn’t much to go on in the traditional literature to suggest that even an adept can esoterically cast his influence over a mantra initiated to many thousands. It would take a tremendous amount of will to bring that kind of intention to fruition. Please let me know if I’ve overlooked something; it’s entirely possible. The idea of a malevolently charged caitanya mantra rings true in a way that’s hard to put a finger on.

Any comments and or substantiations are appreciated. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

>>>"In a way, to suspect that the ONS is esoterically polluted is to accept the notion of a caitanya like effect, "<<<


Yes, that's very true. As I said, I've experienced things since leaving siddha yoga that lead me to recognize that not everything is easily explainable on the mental level. As to how you might "substantiate" this information to your own satisfaction...not from books (Swami Rama's or anyone else's). There are people from whom you can learn these things (mostly in India, in my experience). However, it's not an "intellectual exercise" and requires stepping into something you might not be able to step away from if you change your mind. It also involves adopting a perspective about "life" that is pretty skewed and overly complicated. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it but to each his/her own. In the end, it's a huge distraction not worth much, dangerous, mentally destabilizing and, more often than not, something that leads the practitioner farther and farther away from what is real and always present within. Why create more complexity when the truth is found in simplicity?
This is as specific as I feel comfortable getting here....If you have further curiosity, you'll have to do your own "research".


mantra anon.

Anonymous said...

“This is as specific as I feel comfortable getting here....If you have further curiosity, you'll have to do your own "research".”

-----

Well that’s a teaser if there ever was one, LOL!

The general literature doesn’t explain how adepts can attach their personal intent (for better or for worse) to a mantra. SY said that the guru enlivens the mantra by gaining realization through its constant repletion, but apparently that’s not the nearly the whole of it. Unless you’re will to travel perhaps to India or Nepal (Tibet is very dangerous at the moment) to study indigenous tantric sorcery, becoming an “informed consumer” is a real catch-22. The people who practice these arts aren’t writing books about it, and the rare person who knows something about it first hand doesn’t feel comfortable giving out details (sworn to secrecy, fear of backlash, reconnecting to a plane of reality better forgotten perhaps). Hmmm, well it is quite the conundrum all around. It’s not so easy to be an informed consumer after all.

I’ve read briefly around Western occult systems, but the interest just doesn’t last. The hermetic, kabala, Rosicrucian, and similar systems do seem to pile on a lot of stuff – “overly complicated” as you said. It seems to take me too far out of my way; too indirect to reach my destination. And anyway, strangely enough after years of SY Hinduism, Western occultism just seems so… foreign, LOL.

FWIW, there are a few authors out there alleging that secret occult societies are the power controlling much of the Western world. I think there’s a nugget of political satire there: “Spell Cast Your Way to Political Success for Dummies”.

Anonymous said...

The direction of this discussion is exactly matching the progression of my own musings since I really came to grips with Muk's behavior. (I got shaktipat in 1974 and only last year really opened to that dark aspect of sy)

I made the break partly by wishing no ill will in looking back. I now want to move forward. Hmmm. Not so easy. The mantra hums and bubbles in the background. What had always been a source of quietude and deep peace for me now looms like a wolf in sheep's clothing if I am to understand the discussion now going on here. I want to hear from you. Is the following line of thought simplistic and naive or is it a way out of mantra entrapment?

So. Is there another force of Good out there (or inside me) that naturally overcomes original tainted mantra energy by virtue of how I live My life?

And. Isn't that Good as much the Essence of who I am as the dark side represented by Muk?

To cut through the complications, isn't the knowing of who I am about accepting all of it as an aspect of mySelf but how I ACT on that knowing in day to day life is a matter of my individual self. Thus whether or not the mantra came from a polluted source, what I do with it can actually benefit all.

Or are we all involved in some kind of spiritual mantra laundering?

Anonymous said...

Appreciating the continued discussion on mantra, as I have not yet gotten the broken record of ONS to stop playing when my mind is not occupied. One post mentioned it was like the way Top 40 songs stay in our heads, and I get that. But there is another side, not as inocuous as Little Old Lady of Pasadena. The mantra, chaitanya infused or not, was welcomed in a different way than pop music. Many of us took it and held it and repeated it with complete reverence and discipline.

Now we know Muktananda and Chidvilas were unscrupulous in many of their dealings with devotees. The told stories confirm that and the still untold stories would no doubt create sensational proof. So whether Muktanda could infuse thousands of mantra cards sufficiently to carry his sankalpa, is an interesting point, but it seems irrelevant to me anymore. I just want it gone from here on out.

In a previous post in this thread someone talked about the qualities of Shiva, the destroyer. I knew that of course, but when I read it this time I said, 'I've been praying to a being whose metaphoric image is covered in white ash and wears human skulls around his neck and I wonder why my life went down the toilet?
Beyond that the person who first gave me that mantra, with whom I chanted many times, is a consumate manipulator and predator sin qua non.

Today's NYTimes had a column by Nicholas Kristof on prostitution, the unglamorous side. What he said reminded me of my experience with the SY gurus, the way I was controlled by them. It may resonate for those who were inside. It reflects my experience in SY and has convinced me, along with the sharings here, that I do not want this mantra as my constant companion anymore.

Here's some of Kristof's words: "Pimps crush with a mix of violence and affection, degradation and gifts, and then require absolute obedience ...in exchange they may make presents of clothing or jewelry...It’s complicated. What keeps her isn’t just fear, but also often an emotional connection...When somebody wields power over you ..it’s trauma bonding.”

Yes indeed, SY was all about trauma bonding.

Marta thank you for hosting this valuable discussion.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if this will help anyone struggling with feelings of anxiety around ONS, but this is something that has helped me. When ONS appears in my mind, as soon as I notice it I say to myself, with a lot of feeling, "Only what is wholesome is welcome here." I use this in other situations as well, when anything arises that feels tied to SY. Sometimes in meditation as I begin to get very quiet and boundaries begin to melt away, I feel unprotected--and I will say forcefully to the SY gurus, "You are not welcome here; nothing unwholesome is welcome here."

I do feel that I have enough inner strength to protect myself from psychic "invasion" (if it indeed exists) at this point, but it has taken me a while to get here.

Anonymous said...

ok, since we're getting tangential here (kristol - prostitute comment) has anyone been watching 'damages' on TV? the way the glenn close character manipulates the young associate in the law firm reminds me so much of the tactics used in SY. drawing people in with lavish favors, extending intimacies ('just between you and me....'), pitting colleagues against one another, getting people to spy on one another and then pulling the rug out from under employees just when they're least expecting it.

does any of that sound familiar?

Anonymous said...

Re: tactics used in SY
March 17, 2008 1:44 PM

Haven't seen Glenn Close in 'Passages' but but will check it out. Seeing the portrayal will help me stop denying the truth about what I experienced. What you described was very familiar. Not sure where it was mentioned, maybe even back on Seekher's Rituals pages, but all our moves were reeported. After months and months of extreme seva hours, stress of combatting the lunatic management of projects, wathching untold thousands spent for nought, humiliation upon humiliation piled on by George Afif and Richard Gillette, I get a note. The spies had been reporting everything naturally back to the top. "Why didn't you reach out to me?"

I cannot even begin to describe the depth of that twisted cruelty. Like she didn't know. Nothing went down in the ashram without it being reported and addressed in some bizarre psychological game. The reality of this has been sitting inside me all these years. Thanks for letting me share some of just how crappy SY was. She could have picked up the phone and stopped it. Gifts and sweet intimacies making it even harder to heal just as you describe.

Some my say 'Aren't you beyond all that by now?'. Well getting there, but it is hard to drop what you don't acknowledge. Thanks a heap for helping with that.

Thanks also to the anons advice about unwelcoming anything not wholesome. That will defintely help.

Anonymous said...

"Some my say 'Aren't you beyond all that by now?'. Well getting there, but it is hard to drop what you don't acknowledge. Thanks a heap for helping with that."

Important point, I think. Without acknowledging what really went on, the mental confusion around it and the behavior that confusion spawned just keep coming back in other situations. Seeing clearly what happened, acknowledging that it happened, that's the first step, the most important step IMO, in healing.

older but wiser

Anonymous said...

Librarian/Zennie comments:

Older but Wiser wrote:

"the mental confusion around it and the behavior that confusion spawned just keep coming back in other situations."

I was not in SYDA, but want to offer something I discovered recently about myself. It may provide some insight tools for others trying to figure out how 'behavior that confusion spawned just keep coming back in other situations."

I grew up in a family riddled with secret keeping, and this was enhanced by my becoming a surrogate member of my mother's best friend's family, which was just as riddled with secret keeping as my own family.

In both our families love and friendship equated with collusion, with being accomplices in covering up. And I learned this pre-verbally, in a kind of pre-formatting process.

My mother was also an alcoholic. I learned to just tune out nasty behavior, ignore the gin bottle that lived by the toaster.

40 years later, I had some neighbors living above me. One guy was an enabler who selected dysfunctional room mates. His current room mate gets periodically, roaringly drunk and crashed around, waking me at 2 am, several times, once had a vile party that kept the noise going for hours.

Here is the deal: I could bitch about this to my friends, even to my therapist.

But....never at any time did it ever occur to me, 'You can call the landlord.'

That option never appeared in my conscious awareness.

I only realized that yes, I could call the landlord, when I had a medical condition where I needed rest, and when, after years of putting up with this stuff, my mild requests for quiet at night were rejected with contempt.

I suddenly realized I had been covering for these people, and it was time to stop. And...that I had the legal and human right to communicate with the landlord.

Needless to say my neighbors were enraged that I changed the chemistry by blowing their cover and communicating with the landlord.

But what really fascinated me was discovering that my adult insight and conscious awareness had been disabled and shut down for years by a process instilled in me when I was pre-verbal, namely Keep Things Secret, Cover Up, Dont Tattle.

This matter of confusing friendship, love and good neighboring with collusion, was at a level of consciousness that had been outside my field of awareness--and it had acted like a virus that paralyzed my thought processes, so that I could not even imagine 'Hey call the landlord, or write a letter.'

I could complain to my friends, but could not imagine writing a letter to the landlord.

So, somethinng I learned, preverbally in childhood, acted like a computer virus or a pre-formatting process that later affected my conscious awareness deflecting it in some situations, leaving my conscious awareness and insight wholly intact and effective in other situations.

People pre-formatted this way may thus, pulled by unconscious conditioning, walk into a series of relationships and groups and re-enact what they were taught to do in childhood...be accomplices in a cover up.

We may become excellent recruits for the inner circle of any organization, whether its a cult, a family, or unethical business where secrets need to be kept.

If you keep secrets not even needing to be told to keep secrets, you can find yourself in dangerous situations that look quite obviously dangerous to someone who grew up in a open hearted clan, but that look normal and familiar if one has grown up in a secret keeping clan.

A relationship or organization that doenst run on secrecy can even seem dull and boring.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Lib/Zennie, interesting post. Your last sentence, "A relationship or organization that doenst run on secrecy can even seem dull and boring," sparked memories of feeling very protective of SY, precisely because of the secrets that others "wouldn't understand". I can recall that being expected to keep secrets made me feel especially blessed, set apart. And yes, paths where there was transparency seemed to lack something, some "edge". They did seem boring to me.

At the same time there was a lot of shame around the secrets that I was keeping. I fought for transparency in SY, wrote letters to GM and foundation leaders about it. But unconsciously there was something else going on, something murkier. I too had a history of keeping others' dark secrets in personal relationships. Exposing all that to light was necessary, otherwise I think I might be replaying the same dynamic again.

Anonymous said...

A man named Conrad described this dynamic in the group centered upon Adi Da Samiraj (formerly known as Da Free John)
[www.adidaarchives.org]

Lies, half-truths, and bizarre distortions in the service of the Lord

"As mentioned on the Daism site, the general policy in Adidam is that only good news gets reported, and this creates a culture of lies...

"Adi Da is not supposed to hear bad news, so Adidam for years resembled a Stalinist cabal, where all the bad news was kept secret from the leader, and he was fed lie after lie about the glorious happiness of his loyal followers.

"Likewise, people outside the inner circle were not to hear bad news or stories of Adida's abuse of both people around him, or his abuse of drugs, alcohol, and sex.

"Or, if some such stories were to get out, they would be described in a "spiritual context".

"The guardians of the inner circle were thus the only ones who knew the full picture of what was going on.

***This gave them an incredible feeling of power and responsibility.***

Lying to both sides of the community was taken to be a kind of sacred puja of service to God. Of course, the people became very twisted up and perverted inside by this life of lying, but they generally took pride in being able to "handle it"...

"I've had many conversations with inner circle people about this issue of lying, and it's kind of fascinating to hear people rationalize it...

"To them it was almost the epitome of devotion to their Guru, because of the sacrifice it required on their part.

(Lib/Zennie notes---what would hve been sacrificed would not have been one's crummy little ego, what would have been sacrificed would have been one's actual integrity, one's whole ness. The lying would have created an inner split, a self estrangement and long term,a demagnetizing of one's inner compass.)

Conrad wrote "To them, telling the truth would have been the easy way out*, and they even looked down on me when I advocated telling the truth, as if I were just not advanced enough to understand the subtleties of the art of devotional lying.

*(Truthfulness IS easier than a life of lying, because a life of lying is complicated. My mother, who lied her way through life, regretted it, tried to warn me away from it. She told me, 'You start with just one lie. But you end up telling more and more lies to cover up the one you started with. Being honest takes less work than lying.'

After Mom died and I discovered how very many lies there were, I saw what this had cost her. She ended up an alcoholic. So you bet that truthfulness is the easy way out. And...the energy drained by lying is energy no longer available for human relationships, let alone exalted forms of spiritual practice. It may be that persons drained by lying need heavier and heavier doses of fake stimulants such as shakti, to keep going?)

"I would advocate telling Adi Da the truth about the community, and telling the community the truth about Adi Da, and on both counts was always shot down as hopelessly naive and "stuck on integrity".

Home page for the Daism archives

[www.adidaarchives.org

Lib/Zennie muses

I would bet that quite a few set ups that do serious evil and run on heavy duty lying, make it seem that honesty is for idiots and peasants and inferior people and that lying is a sign of toughness, maturity, excellence, and evidence of elite status.

Cruelty can be rationalized the same with--with compassion being sneered at as weakness, something for inferior folk.

Isnt it amazing that in so very many different groups we see this same thing--that fear, secrecy, lying are made to seem exciting and that truthfulness is made to seem boring?

In AA and NA, a big part of recovery isnt just detoxing from the chemical...that's just the first stage.

The biggest part of recovery is dismantling the entire hustler lifestyle, where using people as objects, living in tension, looking and scheming for drugs has to be seen as a waste of energy and the false glamour of the drinking drugging hustler scene has to be replaced with ordinary honest human relationships---which can seem boring and very alien.

Some may never get free from this addiction to secret driven intensity and roll from guru to guru, entourage to entourage, because 'the edge' is so alluring and ordinary life seems so flat in comparison.

Anonymous said...

March 19, 2008 7:26 AM
March 19, 2008 11:52 AM
Discussions very helpful.

Recently have been taking care of myself in a new way. Exiting situations that required my stuffing what I saw going on, collusion on my part. Going further beyond just leaving, I have taken the time to share what I saw going on. Having been raised in such secret keeping environments, as Lib Z says, from the preverbal age, this has created a lot of anxiety. What is helping me? I repeat out loud to myself. It is good you are telling your truth. It is a good thing. I am proud of you, (me).

Maybe one reason the world is so dysfuntional at so many levels is this type of collusion. Massive agreement to keep telling lies.
I am not sure where this is going to take me, but I just can't admire the emperor's clothes anymore when they are standing there stark naked. Having personal integrity with yourself is not easy. Good to remind myself of that. Get rid of the expectation to feel good while resisting the lies. The good feelings come later, hopefully.

BTW the location for the family booze next to the toaster struck a chord. Same place in my childhood home, only it was scotch.

I sure wish I had an addiction to make all the bad feelings go away....Wait I did...SY! ;-)